Thank you, Minister Moses. Time has expired. If you would like, I can put your name back on. Thank you. Next, we have Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. To clause 2. From Hay River, there has been lots of talk of junior kindergarten ever since the Minister was just a lowly Regular Member in social programs. Some people in Hay River are philosophically opposed to junior kindergarten, for whatever reason. They don't think children should be in school. Some people are unsupportive of the idea of early childhood education. I feel that we already have the facilities needed in Hay River. While Hay River might be equipped to educate our four-year-olds, I am aware that other communities aren't. My first question to the Minister is: if this clause is struck out or if this bill does not pass, what happens to junior kindergarten henceforth? Does the department continue to pursue this initiative? Is it going to attempt to coerce schools to run junior kindergarten programs? Is it going to offer to fund junior kindergarten programs? What is going to happen to junior kindergarten if this bill is defeated or this clause is struck down? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. First and foremost, this government has set out a mandate in the 18th Legislative Assembly to provide early childhood programs throughout the NWT. This will, however, significantly change how we roll out junior kindergarten to our communities. All education authorities are well into their implementation efforts into junior kindergarten and making it a reality in every school come this academic year, in 201718. The 20 communities that currently run junior kindergartens have been doing it very well, and it has been received there very well and are highly successful.
I can't make really definite comments to the Member's questions, but it is mandated by this 18th Assembly that we do provide early childhood programming and early childhood development, and those discussions would have to take place, should that happen, and also discussions taken back to my Cabinet colleagues to find a solution. But I just want to assure the Member that we are committed to providing early childhood programs throughout the Northwest Territories, and junior kindergarten is one of those areas that we can implement it. We do have 12 communities in the Northwest Territories that currently do not have any daycares or day homes, and it is something that we see as a positive, moving forward, providing those to families that do need the development programs for their children entering school. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to clarify, the department's position is that, if Bill 16 is defeated, it will continue to fully fund, in its own words, junior kindergarten in the Northwest Territories; is that correct? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As I mentioned, we are mandated to run early childhood programs, according to this bill and this specific program. Those discussions would have to be made afterwards, but, as I said, this government is mandated, it is a priority of the 18th Legislative Assembly to provide early childhood programs throughout the Northwest Territories, and I do believe Members, with the passion that they have, understand the value of some of these programs going in our communities and appreciate the support from the general comments that were made around the room earlier. At the end of the day and much like it said in the report from committee, regardless of the outcome, both sides want to do what is in the best interests of the child, and I strongly believe that. Otherwise, it would not have been put into the committee report. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Moses. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want people to understand the consequences if this bill or this clause is defeated. I want to know what the alternatives are. The Minister has stated that those discussions have to be had, so has the department not at all prepared itself for the possibility that this bill could be defeated, or has it talked about what might happen if the bill is defeated? Because teachers have been hired; some renovations, I am not sure if they are underway yet, but I am sure plans have been made. What would happen, is my question, if this bill is defeated? Is the department going to continue to try to push this onto school boards? Does it have the power to force it onto school boards? I just want a clear answer. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Okay, Mr. Simpson. That is more hypothetical, but we will let the Minister answer if he would like to. Thank you. Minister Moses.
Yes, all I can say to that question, and you said it perfectly, Mr. Chair, that is a hypothetical question, we do not know what the outcome of this bill is going to be at the end of today, but I can let the Member and the Members know that, as a government, we are committed to providing early childhood programs. We developed an Early Childhood Development Framework and Action Plan in collaboration with the Department of Health and Social Services. We are working with schools, education bodies, to address those. We have made increases to our early childhood program funding, and we are working with daycares and looking at setting up daycares in the communities, as well, so we have done a lot of work. We are going to continue to look at early childhood programs as a priority during the term of this 18th Legislative Assembly. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Moses. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess what I got from that is that the department, not hypothetically, what would happen. I guess I was asking what were the department's plans. Has the department planned and has it come up with a plan, but I am not going to get an answer to that, so I will drop that. We won't know unless it is defeated, and we will see what rolls out, hypothetically. My other question is the Minister has promised to fund this initiative at 12 to 1, a pupilteacher ratio of 12 to 1, and I think, if you look in the schedule of the Child Daycare Act regulations, if a daycare has fouryearolds in it, it needs to be staffed at 9 to 1. I know that is age zero to four, but, if a daycare only has fouryearolds in it, it is still 9 to 1, I believe, and I could be wrong. Why is a classroom with fouryearolds only to be staffed at 12 to 1? Why is there a lower threshold than a daycare or day home? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As previously stated when this question has come up in previous committee meetings and public hearings, at the 12 to 1 ratio and the fouryearolds in the school, in the school building they will have access to other resources in the school, school support teams, counsellors, EAs, principals, so they will have more resources in the school system. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Moses. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have talked to the people in the schools, and they do not buy that answer. They do not think that is an acceptable answer, and that is why I brought it up, because I was looking for an answer that I could bring back to my constituents that they could at least respect. I will just leave it there for now. Continue on. Thank you to the Minister for his answers.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Questions on clause 2.
Next, we have Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We will just keep going back and forth all night here. I wanted to bring up a little concern that one of my constituents brought up last year. His partner was actually working in junior kindergarten last year, and they are really concerned that they were not really expecting to have to deal with because, from what I understand, let's say a threeyearold who is turning four in, say, December, then they are eligible to attend. You know, in some cases, some of the students that are going to junior kindergarten are still in Pampers. It was a huge concern that they were not, when they went to school to become a teacher, they did not really plan to be having to change Pampers in the early grades, so I am hoping that as we move forward that there is a lot of training, whether it is over the summer as they prepare for next year, just so all the staff are prepared and we have assistants coming on so that they get all the proper early childhood training that they need to be dealing with this as we move forward. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Minister.
Thank you. I will go to my assistant deputy minister to answer that one. Thank you.
Thank you. Ms. Mueller.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is actually very common for even kindergarten children who are five years old to have accidents in school, and so this is something that is just a fact that a lot of our primary teachers, elementary teachers, do have to deal with for kindergarten, for fiveyearolds and even into grade 1. But what is found is children, when they are with other children who are not experiencing that, are not in diapers and are toilettrained, is that very quickly the majority of children also want to be toilettrained and it just naturally happens because they want to. They see their peers not having to be in the situation of diapers, so that is actually something that happens.
The other thing, we have developed information both for parents' information sheets, both for the parents and for the teachers as well, through our JK teacher training that just took place a few weeks ago and will happen again in September. This is a topic that is discussed, and a lot of solutions are given to the teacher as different strategies to work with the parents.
Thank you, Ms. Mueller. Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just another thing, I have received some concerns that it is a little too early for four-year-olds to be going to school, but I know the research has shown that between three to five years old is the best time to actually start preparing them for when they get into kindergarten and grade 1. I am hoping that the parents and grandparents will see the advantages of junior kindergarten as we move forward, just so the students are well-prepared once they get into kindergarten and grade 1. I have seen the benefits of my child going to the pilot project in Tsiigehtchic when it first began. Just more of a comment. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Would the Minister like to respond?
Yes. I just want to emphasize again that the rollout of junior kindergarten is still optional for parents to enrol their four-year-olds into the program. It is still optional. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Clause 2. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I will try this one more time. I will try to make it as easy as I can. I went quickly through the 2017 school funding framework. I have identified the specific formulas that do not include junior kindergarten and they are as follows:
i. Administration staffing
iii. District education authority O and M
iii. School support consultants
iv. School counselling
v. School secretaries
vi. Custodians
iv. Support assistance
vi. Staff development
vii. Specialized learning materials, assistive technologies
x. Healing and counselling
i. Aboriginal language O and M
ii. Education assistance and Aboriginal language specialists
Those are the formulas that do not include junior kindergarten students. Can the Minister commit to using his projections of JK students, plugging them into those formulas, and telling us what the additional incremental costs would be? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Under the Education Act, it requires that, when providing operation and maintenance funds to education bodies, the Department of Culture, Education and Employment must allow for a student ratio of 16 to 1. Funding for inclusive schooling supports equals to 15 per cent of all operations and maintenance funds provided in a financial year.
In terms of inclusive schooling, we do add our students. There is a good chance that we will still be above the legislated levels, and adding junior kindergarten, we will still be around somewhere like 13.1 or 13.4, so we will still be overfunding moving forward. We could look at it. We are still going to have funds that are not going to reach the legislated levels on how we fund the operating and maintenance of our education bodies. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think I heard "look at it" at the end there. Is the Minister committing to do the work and providing us with the information? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As I said, we will take a look at it. When we do get the funds back, it is still going to be under, but we fund the ratio of 16 to 1. With the inclusive schooling, we will still be funding above what we fund for inclusive schooling. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Does the Minister have any sense of how long taking a look at it is going to take? Is this something that his department is prepared to give us in a week or two, or how long would it take to have the work done? I think it is plugging a few numbers into some formulas and getting calculations out the other end and comparing it to what it would be without JK. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. What I can commit to is that we will work with our education authorities, as we have created an accountability framework in reporting for our education authorities on how they spend their dollars for the 2017-2018 school year, and get those exact figures as we move forward. Right now, we are still looking at how many numbers we are going to get, but we can commit to working with our education authorities and getting those exact numbers and providing those reports as we do every year. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Clearly the Minister is not going to answer this the way that I want him to. He is not going to do the work. I will have to find another avenue. Perhaps a written question will be the proper way to do this because he is just not cooperating, and it is quite disappointing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Clause 2.
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Clause 3.
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Clause 4. Ms. Green.
Mr. Chair, I would like to propose a motion to amend clause 4(b), and I believe that the text will be distributed at this time. The amended subsection will read that paragraph 4(b) of Bill 16 be amended by striking out 945 hours and substituting 1,000 hours.
