Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister Sebert.
My understanding is that it's not in a settled area. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Testart.
Were consultations undertaken with the Indigenous nation that has a claim to that territory prior to that deal being done? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister Sebert.
I'm not sure which date the Member might be referring to. Is he referring to a consultation prior to the promise being made in the early 1990s or prior to properties actually being transferred? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Noting the clock, it is the latter; but I'll allow the Minister to answer. I want to make one more comment that, on this business of the honour of the Crown, the honour of the Crown, you need to be a Minister of the Crown to make a promise on behalf of the Crown, not a public servant. I don't think the Minister grasps that fully, but a Minister of the Crown can hold the honour of the Crown. That is how that happens. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister Sebert.
Thank you. No, I think that when a senior member of the government makes a promise of the type made, that we are honour-bound to fulfill that promise. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Members, let's please keep this to the budget, to the page, not case law or anything. Next, we have Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I'll try to look forward and not backwards. So, with that, we still have the problem of equity leases, a number of outstanding equity lease issues that are spread throughout the territory. The Department of Lands outlined in their business plan that there were going to be three new positions dedicated to this. Can the Minister give clarification? What is the status as it relates to the positions that are going to be addressing the equity leases throughout the territory? Because, again, we're looking to approve a budget here with current numbers that are presented before us today; and so I want to make sure that, for the record, we're being accurate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister Sebert.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a little difficult to answer that because I think there's been some back and forth, if I can put it that way, as to these positions. The point being is that we are determined to resolve this matter, and I understand that one of the concerns of committee is that they want it resolved sooner rather than later. I think we basically agree with that. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Like we've had to do a couple of times, already through these budget deliberations, and anticipating that we want to move forward and approve these budgets, I think it's incumbent upon the Ministers of the departments to realize what it is that needs to be presented. I mean, we're expected here today to approve a budget. As the Minister alluded to, there might have been, call it, back and forth, but I want clarity on the positions that we are trying to support to overcome this challenge of equity leases.
Would the Minister be in a position today to please clarify for us how many positions are expected to be approved in 2018-2019? Whether or not it requires supplementary approval somewhere down the road, we need clarification on how many positions are being approved to help address the equity leases. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister Sebert.
Thank you. As I mentioned previously, there has been some back and forth to resolve this issue, and I think that there was agreement that there would be five positions involved. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that, and I appreciate the clarity from the Minister. Further to that, can the Minister please provide some detail as to where those positions would be located? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister Sebert.
Yes, if I might defer that question to Mr. Willard Hagen?
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Deputy Minister Hagen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As starting April 1st, our intention is to have two positions in Fort Smith, one position in Yellowknife, a position in Fort Simpson, and one position in Inuvik. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think the Minister had something further to add. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister Sebert.
I just wanted to add that I understand the initial training will be done in Fort Smith, and also, this additional cost is not reflected in the mains. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, I will defer to other colleagues who might have questions on this department at this time. No further questions. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Next, we have Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister for some clarifications here. I am going to go back to what the Minister of Finance has said in here. It says that this would help residents who hold these leases to secure in renovating and building homes, start their businesses, and contribute to the economy. It's maturing equity leases to fee simple title.
Is that exactly what we are going to be doing with these 234 leases? Is it actually going from equity leases to fee simple title? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.
Certainly, in the settled areas, and I am basing that on the assumption that people in those regions will want fee simple, as that will give them certainty as to ownership.
As I mentioned earlier, in the unsettled regions, we are going to have to be consulting with those Aboriginal groups that have claims or asserted claims. There is some preliminary work to be done. I am aware, of course, and I have heard from many, that people in the unsettled areas also want fee simple. I understand that. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for that answer. I guess we just need a little bit more clarification, then, because in the budgets, it said converting mature equity leases to fee simple title. Are we converting equity leases to fee simple title, or are we not? Are we saying we have to worry about land claims that are settled here and land claims that are not settled here, and it's only going to be this area here? This needs to be clarified, because what I understood the Finance Minister to say was mature equity leases to fee simple title. That, to me, means it is going from equity leases to fee simple title. Can they please clarify that? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.
I certainly feel that that would be the most satisfactory resolution on this matter. I simply want Committee of the Whole to know that, in the unsettled areas, there is that additional complication. We are hoping to do that, and I am pretty sure that virtually all of those holding these leases, although I think there might be a few exceptions, will want fee simple. Assuming they want fee simple, in the settled areas, I think that is going to be fairly straight forward. It is more complicated in the unsettled areas. Perhaps I could let Mr. Hagen add to that.
Thank you, Mr. Minister Sebert. Mr. Hagen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Minister is quite correct. In the areas that have settled land claim agreements, people who hold equity leases and are in compliance with their lease can apply to have fee simple title. As we speak, there is work happening, and people are getting title. It is fairly straightforward in the settled land claim regions where the lease holder is in compliance and has no arrears.
As usual, the unsettled land claim regions are very complicated. There are even areas where it is land lease only policy. There are land withdrawals that each Aboriginal government who are negotiating have, including the Metis Nation, and there are also people who are Members of the land claim organizations who are negotiating who do not want their lease converted. They want to wait for their claim to settle, and those lands reflected then become settlement lands. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the deputy minister for that answer. If it was not confusing before, it is getting even more confusing. I understand the process, and I appreciate the answer. I guess my big thing is that we have 244 equity leases. People should be given the option of getting fee simple. I know in my riding a lot of people have come to me. They want fee simple title so that they can start building their homes or businesses and be able do that. That is a concern, and hopefully, with these positions moving in, we will see a better thing.
In regard to the training, are these five positions going to get trained in Fort Smith and then go out, or are these five positions going to be brought in, and then there is going to be training by satellite or by bringing them in together, but they're going to be stationed? I guess we need to get that clarified. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Perhaps I could ask that Mr. Hagen assist in responding. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Hagen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We did have a plan that we were moving forward with over the last six months. In the last few days, it was changed on us. We have not put all of the plan totally together, but with this change of five people now, we intend to train them all in Fort Smith, where we have a lady who retired after 30 years. Her expertise is territorial and Commissioner's lands and equity leases.
We intend to train them there, perhaps for a period of three to six months, and then disperse them out to Yellowknife, Fort Simpson, and Inuvik, leaving two in Fort Smith. They will then be working on equity leases exclusively. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you to Mr. Hagen there. I appreciate the answer, and thank you, Mr. Chair. I could spend probably about another hour on equity leases, but I don't have an hour, so I am actually going to go on to my next concern: the lease payments. Right now, it is 10 per cent by the government, as Mr. Beaulieu talked about. He has one constituent who pays $4,000. I have residents who are paying large amounts of money based on this 10 per cent and after 10 years they have paid for this land, not only once, but usually, if you are looking at making a home in a community, after 10 years you would hope that you don't have to pay it over again. A lot of people spend 20 or 30 years there, so paying three times as much. In my reply to the budget, I asked the department to look at reducing it to 3 per cent. Three per cent seems to be realistic and fair to the residents. Can the Minister confirm that they are going to look at this amount of 10 per cent and what amount are they looking at if they were going to reduce that amount? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Certainly, both inside this House and outside this House, I did hear loud and clear that people felt that the 10 per cent was too much. I agree with that. Therefore, the amount that we are looking at is half of that, which is 5 per cent of the assessed value. That is the value of the land. If there are improvements on it, that won't affect the lease for the land. Thank you.
