Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, that conversation has been happening. As I mentioned earlier, in opportunities where we have had in the regions where, unfortunately, we have not had the capacity, Lands officers have been able to provide some support. Again, the Lands officers are typically funded for positions that are on those mines specifically for lands and water. So we have been talking about ways in which we can gain efficiencies. However, mainly the efficiencies have been realized through collaboration and coordination and where we will go onto sites together and we will plan flights together, and so on and so forth. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Dragon. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Before anybody tries to say that I do not think people are doing their job, that is not the case. These folks have to work very hard. The Minister knows that. He is even laughing when I am saying this because he is probably going to come back on me about it. Those guys have very difficult jobs because they have to deal with members of the public, members of industry, who do not always understand what they are trying to do. I guess, is it fair to say that the water inspectors have a different kind of training and perhaps even a higher level of training and responsibilities under the water licences than, say, the Lands inspectors do for the lands department? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. ENR water resources are regionally based positions, and they inspect water licences at mines, metal mines, oil and gas sites, hydroelectric facilities, municipalities, and camps and lodges. They are specialized staff and in situations where our water officers -- typically they have to have university degrees -- based on when they are looking at, they are inspecting provisions for effluent discharge, monitoring, and waste containment, to provide a few examples. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Dragon. Mr. O'Reilly.
[Microphone turned off] I think the deputy minister has confirmed my point there, that the water resource management officers do have a higher level of training than the Lands guys. That is not to say that the Lands guys are not important. They do their own thing. In any event, can I get a commitment out of the Minister that he will look at this issue of where the inspectors are parked and do their jobs, and they do it well, about maybe getting some efficiencies by reorganizing some of that and bringing the Lands folks into ENR? Can the Minister commit to come to committee with some ideas and options on this? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, as the deputy said before in response to your earlier questions, we haven't had the conversations at an officials' level. We haven't had it at a political yet. If they're looking at some different options, I'm sure they will bring them forward. The Member's quick question was: will I commit to bring this information to committee if they request it? I would be glad to do that. Let's gather some information, and then we will present to committee, and then we'll see the kind of feedback we get from committee. There's an opportunity that we still have a number of business plans coming up in the fall, so there will be opportunities there. I will provide some information. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Any further questions, committee? Seeing none, I will call the page. Water resources, operations expenditure summary, $11,450,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. That takes us next to wildlife. Operations expenditure summary. $14,389,000. Committee, that's from pages 89 to 92. Any questions? Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is an area I need to learn a little bit more about, and I recognize that the department is doing significant work as it relates to monitoring our caribou in the territory, and also recognizing the significance and the importance of our caribou herds and making sure they are protected. Also, as a government, we're making a commitment to some significant infrastructure as it relates to roadways that we're proposing. I spoke today in the House about the road into the Slave Geological Province. Of course, caribou migratory patterns and calving grounds are a significant concern when it comes to these types of discussions. Maybe if the department can explain to us a little bit about the work that they're doing with regard to caribou monitoring, but especially as it relates to these proposed infrastructure projects that we are proposing? Are we working with our other departments with regard to what effects a road might have on our caribou herds and our caribou calving grounds? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This coming summer is going to be a big season for the monitoring of herds. We're going to have surveys in just about every herd across the Northwest Territories. It's our annual every two or three years of monitoring where the herds are at. After this, the information will have to be synthesized, and then we'll have reports on kind of where the population is at this point; but for the majority of the herds, two out of the 10 herds, two out of 10 were done in July 2017. The rest are going to be done in July 2018, so this summer. That's dealing with the monitoring.
In terms of interdepartmental discussions, I think we've had a healthy discussion on development. I think, when we look at the economic opportunities that have to occur in the North, we also have to understand that we have to look at the conservation of our keystone species as well. I think that's been a healthy conversation at the officials' level and also with our co-management partners. Anything that we are going to be doing when we look at all these herds and how they have trans-boundary issues of going from whether or not they're in Nunavut or here in the Northwest Territories or in the Yukon, we have to make sure that we're working with our co-management partners and our inter-jurisdictional partners. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Dragon. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the insight and the reply. I'm trying to determine maybe also a little bit more on how it is that we would come to a decision with regard to whether it's a go or no go to a project like a road to resources when it comes to the impacts that it may or may not have on wildlife, and in particular, in this instance, our caribou herds. Can the department explain a little bit more about wildlife, caribou monitoring, what is required in monitoring caribou as it relates to putting a roadway, specifically a road like the road to resources, sorry, the Slave route geological road. I drive Highway 3 all the time going south, and we all are very well aware of the bison that live along the roadway. The Porcupine caribou is a thriving herd. They're having to cross the Dempster on a regular basis. I'm trying to understand: is this an undertaking that can really kind of have drastic effects on our caribou? What are we doing to really know whether we can or cannot go forward with an investment such as this? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Looking at the development, I think when we see an activity that's going to be occurring in a specific habitat for caribou, one of the things that's very important that we have is our monitoring data of collars to make sure that we know where the different ranges are. That really varies from year to year. We've invested quite heavily in collar data. We provide that data to Nunavut, as well, as a shared jurisdiction. Looking at migrational routes, the other thing that we have to look at is vegetation, and seeing whether or not we have the appropriate vegetational markers along the migrational routes so that caribou, as they follow these migrational routes, we know that they're going to be going back to very specific areas.
The other thing that we've done recently is we've done on-the-land monitoring. There was a program done with the Tlicho Boots on the Ground where we had community members go out and actually visually inspect caribou that were on the land, and try to provide more of a traditional knowledge to the conversation, because one of the things that we see with data is that they do change their patterns. By having the collar data and looking at vegetation, we need to keep in consideration those aspects when we think about development.
Finally, what I would say is that, when we look at the development, we really need to look at when and where. What we're looking at as a department, we're seeing if there are any current studies that are happening in other areas where development has taken place, and whether or not we can learn from those. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Dragon. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is all good information. That is sort of where my underlying concern is, too. We are making every effort as a government to try to finalize a route for this road going into this Slave geological area and, of course, those ever-changing migratory patterns of caribou and other wildlife, most certainly. I'm trying to get an understanding of when we determine, how we determine what the actual route is going to end up being when the patterns in which wildlife behave are changing rapidly, especially with climate change now. It's changed the traditional behaviours, or the migratory patterns of these animals. I guess it's just a comment. I don't know if the department has anything more to add to that just to try to help build some certainty. This remains, of course, still an underlying concern. This is, in my view, a significant piece of infrastructure that I feel needs to go forward, but I also recognize the incredible importance of our caribou herds and all of our wildlife and the impacts that it has on, and in particular, on Indigenous people. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we all share the Member's concern with the state of the caribou herd in the Northwest Territories. Again, this is another area where traditional knowledge would play an important factor, because who knows the caribou better than the people who have been living off them for hundreds of years?
There had been an opportunity there, and I think it's one of the reasons that as we do caribou surveys and Deputy Dragon spoke to before, the Boots on the Ground program. Again, that's taking advantage and using a lot of traditional knowledge, and good caribou management practices, too, once you do have the infrastructure in place.
You mentioned the Porcupine caribou herd and how that herd is one of the only ones that have been able to thrive. They have a good Porcupine Caribou Management Board, and then there's a lot of respect for the caribou, as well. There are opportunities where the caribou are close to the highway, but they have a great caribou management, and as well there's a lot we can learn from that, and traditional knowledge.
Once they determine the route to road is going to go, I'm sure they work with all the appropriate parties to see how best they can do without having too much of an effect on wildlife. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Vanthuyne. Oh, sorry. Time's up. Next, we have Mr. McNeely.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mine is more of an observation contribution or notice here. Having considered some of the previous studies that I was involved in and seeing industry on monitoring and mitigating the impacts of wildlife habitat and the community as a stakeholders to this government contributing their efforts through self-management initiatives, in the community of Deline several years ago leadership got together and had a public meeting and set an understanding to the people that there would be no harvesting until further notice.
The whole community got together and really accepted that. I was really surprised at the extent they would go in preserving their herd and working with the department at the region office in Norman Wells to participate in the caribou survey.
Some of the applications that I've seen with industry, the industry had wildlife habitation movement monitored by in-field cameras. That data was collected and shared with the region's Renewable Resources Councils. It gives me confidence that large impacts would be analyzed prior to everybody's approval and prior to the initiating of the project itself. These studies and these movements on habitat would be included in the application.
The recent application we've just seen is the Canyon Creek all-weather road. The volumes of data that was collected right from vegetation to wildlife species of different sources. I kind of take that into account when we move forward to discuss, let's take, for example, the Whati. I'm quite certain there would be a lot of supporting data to the habitat of the chosen waterway for that particular infrastructure. I just share that with committee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McNeely. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the Member for sharing that information. Again, it just points to the importance of the fact that the Aboriginal governments, and I'm going to use this opportunity again to commend the Tlicho Government for taking a leadership role in the preservation of the caribou herd that they've hunted for hundreds of years. They work closely with ENR on a mobile zone. This is how it's going to work. They have a lot of respect for the caribou and they've taken some steps as a government to limit the number of caribou. As you get into some of these projects or proposed projects, obviously there's an environmental assessment that they have to go through and then they will gather all that information to help with their decision making or their final decisions. All of this is taken into account.
Again, I appreciate the Member sharing his experience and the information that he was able to gather during his time with this House. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. McNeely.
No further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McNeely. Next on the list, we have Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Let's start with boreal caribou. In the business plan, it says that the National Recovery Strategy is legally required and has to have at least a minimum of 65 per cent of undisturbed habitat. The next sentence says that currently approximately 66 per cent of the Northwest Territories range is undisturbed. We have a 1 per cent margin for the boreal caribou habitat remaining undisturbed to meet the National Recovery Strategy requirements.
Boreal caribou are important. We have this 1 per cent disturbance sort of limit that's out there. In the budget, though, boreal caribou monitoring is going to be cut by $150,000. Can someone tell me how much money remains for boreal caribou monitoring after this cut? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Member is correct. There is a legal requirement for 65 per cent, and we're at 66 per cent, but that number changes as we get some new previously burnt areas coming back on stream. I have to add our 1 per cent is actually quite large compared to the other jurisdictions, but his point is well taken.
The $150,000, we're just trying to get the number here as to what's left in the budget, but I can inform this House that we are working with Environment and Climate Change Canada for funding under the Federal Species at Risk Act. These funds will be used to complete the Range Planning Framework We haven't got an exact dollar figure yet, but my early understanding is going to be significantly more than $150,000. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. While the Minister and his staff are digging out the number, I guess I'll turn to: there is out now for public discussion a framework for boreal caribou range planning. A big part of this document really revolves around what's called adaptive management. It's basically a tiered approach to management and looking at disturbance levels and starting to do things with regard to regional range plans.
A big part of this document is really about monitoring. We have our government's own document talking about the need for more monitoring, but we're cutting the monitoring by $150,000. Can someone try to explain this again for me, because I just don't understand why we're making a cut to this funding when our own documents are calling for more monitoring of boreal caribou? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, because the federal government declared this a species at risk, I mean, they are going to fund the monitoring of the caribou, and my understanding is it is going to be significantly more than the $150,000 that is being reduced. We will have the necessary appropriation to do all of the monitoring on the boreal caribou, and I will turn it over to Dr. Dragon to add on to some of the Member's other points that he raised. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, in looking at our monitoring approach for boreal caribou, we realize that we are going to need significant funding in order to be able to do this. Our recent conversations that we have had over the past, I would say, six to seven months with Environment and Climate Change Canada was looking at, we will see the numbers in the budget that came out today, but there is going to be some significant money that is going to be available for that research. The Northwest Territories is one of the largest jurisdictions for boreal caribou. We have come up with a very strategic approach to the adapted management and the tiered approach within the boreal caribou range. We think that, based on our conversations that we have had with Environment and Climate Change Canada, we should have significant money that is going to be coming through that arrangement. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Dragon. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay. We have some hints that there might be some federal money coming, so that gives us reason to cut back our contribution to boreal caribou monitoring? That just doesn't make any sense to me. I am going to leave this one for now. I do not think this is a good cut. I think it is another one that is being made for Cabinet's fiscal reduction strategy that is not evidence-based. I do not know why the department is doing this. It does not make any sense whatsoever. I want to move on, though, to barren-ground caribou, and there is a line item in the business plan that reads: "Continued well-being of the Bathurst caribou herd related to the Jay Pipe Project," and it's $310,000. The Minister talked about it in his opening remarks as well. Why is GNWT paying this money, and not Dominion Diamond? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minster McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I am going to respond to the Member's first point about the boreal caribou and the $150,000 reduction, and then I am going to go to Dr. Dragon to add to the Member's second part. Again, it is not a hint that we are going to get money from the federal government. We are certain we are going to get money from the federal government, and when we do get that money, I will be happy to sit down with committee and share that amount with them. We are very confident in this, and I do not think it ruined this just because it is a reduction. I mean, some of the savings realized here are able to be used in other areas of Environment and Natural Resources. We would not do this if it was just a hint, Mr. Chair. We are confident that we are going to get money, and it is going to be significantly more than $150,000. I will be more than happy to share that amount with the Member when we get the amount, and then I am going to ask Dr. Dragon to add on to the Member's comments about the Bathurst caribou herd. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. O'Reilly.
I thought I was going to hear from the deputy minister, but the clock is going to run out on me here, Mr. Chair, and I guess I need to go on the record. The Minister of Infrastructure has said twice in this House that environmental considerations have played no role whatsoever in the routing of the Slave Geological Province road to date, so I want to confirm with the Minister: have his staff been involved with the Department of Infrastructure in looking at the routing of the proposed road? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, well, first of all, I am not sure if I have heard the Minister of Infrastructure say that environmental conditions will play no part in the route to the road. I would have to confirm that. I mean, I will look it up. I will just type it into one of the websites, and I am sure that information will come up. I am going to get Dr. Dragon to talk about the work that he has done with the officials at the officials' level. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Minister McLeod, Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. At the officials' level, we have started discussions on what are going to be the impacts of a proposed road that would go through caribou habitat. We continue to have those discussions, and once we get more of a formalized approach, as the Minister had mentioned earlier, and going through the EA process, a lot of that research and the feedback from Indigenous groups and organizations as well stakeholders will come through that process. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
