Thank you, Mr. Chair. In response to an earlier question, I did identify the number of visits that the RCMP were making. Clearly these were not all in response to offences in the community, but I would be happy to bring over somebody to meet with committee, should committee wish, from the RCMP to discuss what goes on apart from the regular policing in the communities. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Minister's commitment on that. I guess, would it be easier just for me to work with the detachment in Fort Simpson to see what is going on there and work with them on this matter? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Well, generally speaking, I think it would be better to work through the Yellowknife office, where the commanding officer is. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Now, in regard to Wrigley, because they have a position that is stationed in Fort Simpson, does the department actually work with them to make sure that they get the allocations of number of visits that are supposed to be there? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
As I mentioned, there were approximately 25. Over the last few years, it does seem to be an average of 24 or 25 visits per year, but I understand that, from the Fort Simpson detachment, they do work on the planning for these visits. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for that. I am not looking at the number of visits; I am looking at the durations that they are in the community. Is it 25 visits where they just come in for a day and they leave, or is it over an expanded period of time? How many days are they in the community? I guess that is the question I should be asking. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
I am not certain of the duration of the patrols. I was under the impression that that might be about a day each, but I understand that there was some discussion with the Fort Simpson detachment about increasing the number of patrols. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that. The big thing is that, without the police presence, sometimes the nurses don't want to be staying there. There is a safety issue for them. Will the Minister work with the Health Minister and try to coordinate travel where the nurses can go in there at the same time, and help that out? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
I am always willing to work with the Minister of Health. I don't know whether it would be appropriate or would suit the RCMP to travel in at the same time, but I can discuss that with the Minister. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson. Nothing further from Mr. Thompson. Seeing nothing further, I will call this activity. On page 277, Justice, community justice and policing, operations expenditure summary, activity total, $5,445,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Next, corrections, beginning on page 280. It's a $36 million item. Comments or questions from committee? Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Standing Committee on Social Development had the opportunity to visit a place called Guthrie House at the Nanaimo Correctional Centre. It is a therapeutic community within a corrections setting. I know the Minister has been there as well. I wonder if he could give us an update on the planning that is taking place to pilot a model such as Guthrie House within the NWT corrections? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also was impressed by my visit to Guthrie House when I was there in the latter part of last year. I understand we have developed a working group to look into the possibility of having a similar facility in the Northwest Territories. It is fairly preliminary, but I can say that, when the department went down, I think I can speak for the others who were with me, we were all impressed with Guthrie House and certainly would be considering such a model in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is good news that there is a working group looking into a similar program in the NWT. Can the Minister give us any more specifics around who is on the working group, what they have been asked to do, when they are going to report on it, when there may be an ask in the business plan to fund the pilot, that kind of detail? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I could defer that question to Mr. Goldney, I think he could give more detail. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and yes, the working group is very active, comprised primarily of officials from our corrections division. We have also included staff members at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, and we do have the support of -- apologies, I forget the position, but we do have assistance with an official from the Department of Health and Social Services, from their mental health and addictions section, helping to evaluate potential program design and doing some preliminary costing.
We are very encouraged by the results that we are seeing so far from our look at the potential for this model to be applied at one of our institutions. The work will also include a program design that makes sense for the Northwest Territories, so we do anticipate that there will be changes to the model that we saw in the context of British Columbia in Nanaimo, but we are very encouraged by the results that we are seeing so far.
We are also looking at our inmate population and trying to keep point-in-time assessments of what kind of numbers we might have for our inmate population that could benefit from a program like this. We do recognize that we have some challenges in applying the Guthrie model wholesale, so we will have to consider things like the amount of time our inmates are available to us, but so far we are very encouraged that we will be able to come forward with a model that makes sense. We will have some more information on what the potential cost implications might be.
I would just also add that we have met with staff at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre who were also very encouraged by the potential this program might offer or a program like this might offer. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you. I would like to thank the witness for the detail on that. Could he just now fill in a little bit around the timing? At what point does he anticipate the department will be ready to come forward looking for money to fund a pilot? Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Certainly, our objective is to model this and cost this out so that we would be in a position to make changes in our next business plan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to seeing that in the next business plan.
I recognize that there are challenges around time served. That was true in Guthrie House, as well. The inmates needed to be there for four months in order for the program to be successful. Another dimension of that program was that the John Howard Society actually was the staff support within the facility. What are the witness' thoughts on how to deal with those two potential challenges? Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the things that encourages us is the evolution going on within corrections right now to provide more modular programming and ongoing support for offenders once they are released from our facilities, and we are doing work within our probation services to provide that support.
We will certainly be looking at community partners as options to help deliver programs as offenders transition away from our facilities. We do recognize that one of the initial hurdles will be that peer support that seems to be a key feature to the success of the therapeutic community model, so we will be very interested in options that might assist on that front, but we do recognize that as a challenge. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Those are the challenges, and I am happy to hear that they are being considered up front. One of the real successes that Guthrie House has is working with residents to find them housing. They start working on the question of where they are going to be released to, almost from the time they come into Guthrie House. The idea there is that no one would be released into homelessness. I would like to know whether the department is also making this a priority; that is, where are inmates going to be released? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand we do that with our case managers now, but there are some challenges. One of the challenges being the shortage of available housing for anybody, and particularly in the smaller communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, if I recall correctly from Guthrie House, what the John Howard staff do there is set people up with market housing and then find the support to help pay for the market housing. Is that something that the Minister could look at for those inmates who are being discharged into communities with market housing?
Thank you. Minister.
Mr. Chair, yes, we could look at it. We have to be always cognizant that there are others looking for housing, and we do have it generally in the Northwest Territories, a shortage of housing, so there are some challenges, but we can look at it. Thank you.
Thank you. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am happy to hear that the Minister is willing to do that. What we heard from the inmates we met was that this was critical to their success. Rather than being discharged into the same kind of housing situation that they left when they originally got into trouble, they would be in a place over which they had control of who was in and out, and what was going on within the place. I recognize that this is an investment, keeping people in their own homes at a cost of, let's say, the average rent for a two-bedroom in Yellowknife, which is around $1,650. It is a lot cheaper than keeping them incarcerated. I hope that the Minister, in looking at this initiative, also take into account a cost benefit analysis of incarceration versus release into market housing. I wonder if he has a comment on that? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Clearly, there is a benefit to people not being incarcerated, because that is a very expensive housing option, if I can put it that way. Again, the challenge we face is the shortage of housing, and it might be difficult to suggest that our inmates upon release should get some priority over others. That is the problem we are going to be facing. Thank you.
Thank you. Ms. Green, your time has expired. Mr. Testart.
