Debates of May 29, 2018 (day 31)

I thank the Minister for that suggestion, but they would like a little more detail. I guess I'll follow up with an email with the Minister of Infrastructure on this, and try to get a breakdown, but I thank the Minister for providing information here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. I don't hear a question in there; we shall move on. Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm looking at some of the highway projects on here, and there are some big numbers and they are very labour intensive, these projects, and I was wondering if the Minister knows if the Department of Finance keeps track of what portion of these are being done by northern firms, or what portion of northern employment there is? We are spending a lot of money on these highways. I want to know: what sort of money is staying in the territory? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I believe they do keep track of the work, and I think it's part of the contract, and things may have changed, but you normally have to put your northern content in there. So all we need to do is have a conversation with Infrastructure as to what percentage was done by Northerners, and obviously we would like to see the bulk of this work done by northern companies, and I think for the most part, now maybe in the southern part of the territories there's a bit more challenge because they're a little easier accessible for the southern companies to move in, but we'll provide that information as to the northern content and how much might be going to northern businesses. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know that these were all discussed, these were all previously approved last year, and so this is more about the carry-over, but with a lot of these big projects being from the southern part of the territory, I know that it's hard for the northern firms in the southern part of the territory to compete with a lot of these southern firms. Especially when you start talking about really big contracts, when the Business Incentive Policy doesn't apply so much. The reason I ask what the northern hire is, and the benefits of the North are, is because I think it's about time that we start looking at the costs and benefits of negotiated contracts sometimes, or breaking up some of the larger contracts into smaller ones that are more manageable by northern firms. Is that something that the department is doing, or the Minister is aware of? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you Mr. Simpson. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I take the Member's point that we do want the benefits of a lot of the money that's spent by the government to be with government firms, or with territorial firms. I think in the past they have tried to break down some of the contracts. I'm not sure about the infrastructure side of the highway contract, but I can have a conversation with the Minster of Infrastructure. We've heard your concerns, we've heard concerns from some of the businesspeople around the Northwest Territories about the fact that they feel that some of the southern companies come in and take advantage of the money that the GNWT spends, so ideally we'd like to see as much of this stay in the Northwest Territories as possible. We have a number of firms that deliver a quality product, and we should be taking advantage of that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If infrastructure saves ten bucks, and income support has to pay out one hundred, that's not good value to the GNWT in general. I'll just leave it at that, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister McLeod, did you want to provide a comment?

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I think I am going to take the Members point, and I think you can look at the Tuktoyaktuk highway as a prime example of the money that stays in the territories, and I think we've all seen the number of folks who work there, so that is one of the benefits of that project. Income support numbers, I know, went down. Housing rent collections actually went up, so there is benefit. I take the Member's point; we take that very seriously. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you Minister McLeod. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I do have some questions about Taltson Expansion. I know there is $200,000 in this supplementary appropriation package, in that $150,000 is coming from the federal government, so the rest is coming from us, and I thank the Minister and his staff for giving us a bit of a 10-year schedule of what might happen, but there is almost no information here, very little details on what this project is really all about. I understand he is prepared to provide some more information about the Great Slave Lake Crossing study, but this was something that was tried by Deger(ph) Energy. The environmental assessment for that was terminated in 2013, almost five years ago. So why is this being dredged up now? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Finally, some dredging getting done. Minister McLeod.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I am going to make an attempt to answer that, and if I'm wrong then I'm sure the Minister of Infrastructure will correct me. As far as the Member's first point on the information that we provided them, again, I think it goes back to an earlier point that one of the Member has made about the short timeline that we had from the briefing this morning, until we got into Committee of the Whole with the supplementary estimates this afternoon, so we tried to provide whatever information we could in that short timeframe. As we go forward, we're going to try and space this out so we can have a little bit of back and forth or give Members a little more detailed information that they can absorb before we have our discussion. That could be one of the reasons that the information on here, as far as five years ago, I think, now, this is being dredged up, because there is an opportunity here to tap into a lot of federal dollars. We start the work now. We will be able to access some of those dollars.

There is a big push from the federal government with all the initiatives they are rolling out the door by the bushel to support projects like this. This fits right into their mandate. There is an opportunity for us to put some preliminary work together, go to them with a fairly good business case, and then see if we can get the funding. We will go from there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the answer from the Minister. Look, Deger Energy didn't go ahead for a bunch of reasons, but one of the key ones was there was no buyer, no buyers identified at the end of the day. We still don't have any buyers either north of the lake or south of the lake. I just don't understand why this is being pursued.

If we use the money that we are trying to put into this project for almost anything else, whether it is energy retrofits in housing, small energy projects in smaller communities, we would get way more value for our money, I think. I am very interested in seeing this business case. Can the Minister confirm that there are no buyers for this power, there is nothing so far? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, my understanding, there are no buyers at this moment, but give us the opportunity to go and do the work, do the initial studies, go present the business case to Canada. If we present the business case to Canada and they look favourably on it, then that might, in turn, give us some buyers. I am just assuming that is going to happen.

If you want to sell a product, you have to have a good business case to sell that product, and we can put one together. It is $200,000 in the overall big picture. We do make a lot of other investments, as this floor obviously knows, in a number of different energy initiatives, territorial-wide.

If this is an investment of $200,000 to allow us to do the initial work, then make a fairly good business case, and try to secure funding, then we may be able to secure the buyers. That would be part of this, as well. Allow us to do the work. Then, if we come to the point where it is not feasible, we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I understand what the Minister has said. That bridge is already on us. The energy strategy contains commitments to build expansions to Taltson that are going to account for 44 per cent for our greenhouse gas reductions when we don't have any confirmed buyers, no money. I just don't think this is a good investment of money, quite frankly. I can't support this, even at $200,000.

If this money is to be used to look at replacing diesel in existing communities and building transmission lines to get Taltson power to, say, Fort Providence or Kakisa, maybe even to Yellowknife, I could support this. If it is to build huge transmission lines to the diamond mines or to try to sell this power in Alberta or Saskatchewan, that is totally wrong. I will not support any of that. If the Minister wants to respond, I would be happy to hear it. That is not the kind of project that we need. I won't support it. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Would the Minister care to respond? Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we can't doom this project to failure before we even start. We need to make a business case. If we build a business case and we are able to secure customers, then that, in turn, will have an effect on ratepayers across Northwest Territories. That will bring their cost of living down. There is a trickle-down effect. It is $200,000 in the overall big picture. I think it is a worthwhile investment. If you are trying to sell something, you need to put a good business case forward. The Member may disagree with me. We have a number of initiatives government-wide, a lot of the money that we spend on initiatives to help a lot of the small communities. Being from a small community, I see that quite clearly. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Anything further? Mr. O'Reilly, three minutes.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am not going to take up three minutes. Look, we can get way bigger bang for our buck and reduce the cost of energy in small communities by not going ahead with this and putting in space heating that relies on wood pallets, biomass, small-scale power energy retrofits. We can get way bigger bang for our buck than the billions of dollars this is going to cost.

I look forward to seeing what kind of business case is prepared, but this is not the way that we are going to be able to meet our Pan-Canadian Framework targets. This is not the way that we are going to lower the cost of energy in our communities. We have way better ways to achieve that. I don't expect a response, and I don't really want one from the Minister at this point. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. O'Reilly doesn't want you responding on his time, but I will restart the clock. Minister McLeod, 10 minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to respond. I am not going to get into a debate with the Member. We can have our debate off the floor. There are a couple of things. This is not billions of dollars. We are talking $200,000 as an initial investment to put a business case together. If the business case proves that it is not feasible to do, then we will have to have a look at it.

It is $200,000. If the business case proves fruitful, then there may be a bit more investment. Again, taking advantage of the federal government's money. It is $200,000 to try to put a business case together to see if it is feasible to go forward and try and secure more funding to see this project through. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Next, Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will start on Highway No. 8 here. I see carry-over of $1.4 million. Is this work going to continue this summer? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, Mr. Chair. That is the expectation, that the work will continue this summer. From what I read, there is some gravel resurfacing from kilometres 0 to 30; culvert replacement at kilometres 143 and 148; and brushing at kilometres 161 to 168. I was going to say "Inuvik." Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Next, I will go to the Inuvik airport access road. I believe the contract was awarded earlier this spring. Is that where the carry-over is going? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the construction contract is under way. Carry-over is required to meet the obligation of the federal agreement. The Member is correct. There is going to be some work done on their embankment; widening and replacement of steel pipe, culverts, and chip seal; resurfacing from kilometres 259 to 269, as well as the hospital hill drive near the airport access road. The project is expected to be completed in the fall of 2019. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Blake.

Sounds interesting. Next, I will move to the James Creek maintenance camp, the carry-over there. Last I heard, the contract was near being awarded. Since then, has the contract been awarded? When can we expect to see work being started on this project? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Member is correct. There is the carry-over. The project was delayed, responding to the Gwich'in Land and Water Board use for a land-use permit. As far as the contract being awarded, I am not aware of the contracts being awarded yet. I will work on my colleague from the Department of Infrastructure to see if a contract has been awarded. It seems to be the bulk of the delay is with the land-use permit. I believe they had chosen a site for this, and then they have to go through the Gwich'in Land and Water Board. We will follow up on that and get a bit more detail and on the awarding of the contract, if it has been awarded yet. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That sounds good. I was hoping they negotiated it, but I am sure we will get a little more information from the Minister once he is available there. I will move onto the parking garage we have in Aklavik. I believe this is the second time where we have this carry-over. Will the department ensure the work is done this summer as soon as possible? I'm sure the community would appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Yes, Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am not sure what stage the project is at right now. Again, I will work with the Minister of Infrastructure to see what stage it is at, and see if there is an opportunity to complete that work this summer. As the Member said, I think it has been carried over a couple of times now, so we have to ensure that the project is completed and they can use that garage, and we won't have to come back to this floor for another carry-over. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, that sounds great. Next, I will move on to the Inuvik wind project. I am glad to see it after many years of working on this. I am sure this is a great benefit to the community, as we all know how many people are leaving Inuvik due to the cost of living, with heat and everything that has gone up so high in the last few years because of high costs. I do believe that one of the projects is under way to build the road to the site. Is that correct? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, my understanding is that is correct. The work began to start the road to the site. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Could you repeat that?