Debates of May 29, 2018 (day 31)

Thank you, Ms. Green. Minister.

Well, ideally, we would like to try and get the contracts out as soon as possible. That's one of the reasons we changed the capital estimate process that we go through to October, so we are in a position to get contracts out. If we feel that there is a capacity issue, then, we will have to take steps to address that, but I think that the department is working quite hard at trying to roll out the projects with the folks we have and the amount of dollars that are coming into the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I didn't hear in that answer how things would be different in the next fiscal year than they are now. Given the fact that there is no increase in capacity, and no decrease in funding, what's going to make the difference to get the contracts out sooner? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I think some of the projects are quite big. I'll use Stanton, for example, and the money that we are investing in there. Some of those should come off the books as they are completed, so I would anticipate that we will not coming forward next year with such a large carry-over budget. Then again, we work on getting these contracts let and out the door. That should reduce the carry-over from this year to next. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I still don't hear a definitive answer there on how this is going to be reduced. I think we all understand what the problem is, but we don't have a grip on the solution. If it isn't one big project like Stanton, it's going to be another big project like the Tlicho road. Is there a way to break down the contract amounts into smaller projects as a means to move forward with more money going out the door? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, where there is an opportunity and it makes sense, and we still get a good product at the end of the day, I suppose it's something we could look at, but we have to ensure that we get quality product if we break it down. I think I have said a couple of times before that we work on getting these contracts out the door as quickly as possible or as soon as the appropriation is approved. Then we should see a reduction in the carry-over. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

[Microphone turned off]

I would remind everyone to keep an eye on the red light to ensure that it is on while you are speaking. There was nothing further from Ms. Green for general comments. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am just going to go back to clarification here. The business plans start in October. We approve them, and so we are having delays getting these contracts out in a timely manner. Has the department looked at even moving that process even earlier so that we can get these contracts out as of April 1st? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, our business planning starts in September for the operations budget. Capital plans is the one we debate in the October session, and it used to be a little later. At least that's my understanding while I was part of this Assembly, when we'd debate the capital budget a little later than that. Then we heard some concerns about the ability to get the projects contracted, out the door, material ordered, while we still have a winter road, so that is one of the reasons we changed the approval process to October. I think, for the most part, it has worked fairly well. Again, there has been a huge influx of money, so we are trying to deal with it, and I am not sure if moving it earlier would speed it up. We approve the capital estimates in October, and I think they have until April 1st, is when the money starts being appropriated, so that gives them time to have contracts in place. We just have to ensure that we work with all departments to make sure that the contracts are let and out the door, taking advantage of the time change in the debate on the capital estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for that. That clears things up a little bit better. I guess my question, though, is: because we have seen this huge number of a carry-over, do you guys track the reasons why we have these carry-overs? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we do track why some of the projects are carried over, and there were a number of reasons that that could be. I think I shared some of those in our briefing with committee. However, I believe we shared all of the briefing information with committee as to why most of these projects were carried over. If not, I will go back and have a conversation with my department and we will share the proper information with committee, but I think we have shared a great deal of information as to why many of these contracts or why many of these projects were carried over. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, and I thank the Minister for that commitment and the information, I guess. I guess the question I have is: have we learned anything? I guess maybe it's just because of the huge influx of money from the federal government, but do you come up with best practices of how to improve the process? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we do learn from year to year on why projects are delayed and if there is an opportunity for us to get everything finalized, get the contracts out the door, have them awarded, have the contractors ordering their material or whatever they need to do to be ready for when the money starts being appropriated in April. It's a learning process. Again, we try to get as many of these projects out the door as quickly as possible, but, with anything we do within the government, it's a learning process, and we try to go with best practices and see what works well so that we are not in a position where we are having such large carry-overs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Nothing further from Mr. Thompson. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I, too, am concerned about the large amount of carry-over. I guess I wonder how much of that is due to reduced capacity within the Department of Infrastructure. This is a department that was a creation of amalgamating Public Works and Services and the Department of Transportation. It was one of three departments to actually take a cut last year in its O and M budget. I went back and tried to refresh my memory here about how many positions were lost during that amalgamation, and it looks like it was about 45, at least, on 580 when you combine the two departments, so that, to me, I just wonder about whether those cuts have affected the ability to get the money out the door, manage these projects more efficiently. So I want to ask the Minister if he could provide us with some information, then, about the capacity of the Department of Infrastructure. If he can't give the information here, I would like to get a commitment to provide it, about how many, what the budget and staffing in the procurement function within Infrastructure, how that has gone over the last two or three years with the cuts that have been made. I would like to get the commitment to get that information out of the Minister. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, if you go back a few years, last year, I believe we had $126 million in carry-overs; 2016-2017, we had about $137 million in carry-overs; 2015-2016, we had $6 million in carry-overs. As far as the lack of capacity of the department, I believe the department has capacity. I can't speak on behalf of the Minister. If they feel that they are challenged for capacity in delivering some of these programs, then it's a conversation we need to have at the Cabinet table and as an Assembly when we debate the next round of the operations budget. The Member had asked for some specific information. We cannot provide it here. I think the Member had asked if we would be able to provide it to him separately from this process, and we would be glad to do that. I will work with my Cabinet colleagues to see, if committee requests a technical briefing or anything of that type, we will be sure to try to help facilitate that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I appreciate the commitment of the Minister to provide the information about our procurement capacity, given the changes that have happened within the Department of Infrastructure over the last couple of years. I guess I also want to thank the Minister and his staff. We only had a briefing on these two supplementary appropriation bills this morning, and we got an email about two hours ago with seven briefing notes attached to it, with additional information that we requested, and I am concerned about the amount of time that we be had to actually look at that information and meaningfully discuss the bill before us. I am expressing some concern about our ability to do a thorough review, given the shortened timeframe here.

Where I am going with this is I guess I am going to ask the Minister: in putting together the information packages for these supplementary appropriation bills, there is not a lot for some of these items. I am going to suggest that the kind of information that was sent to us, I know it makes for a lengthier briefing binder package, but if that kind of information can be provided up front, I think we can avoid some of the debate and discussion that we are going to have on the floor here today and make for better decisions at the end of the day. Can the Minister find a way to provide more information in the packages that he provides to us with the bills? Yes, that is what I would like to know. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Just for the record, we are discussing a tabled document, not a bill, at this point. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I appreciate the Member's attempt at giving some credit to the department. It was going along really well until I heard the "but." I take the Member's point, though. I mean, he is right. We did have a briefing this morning. We provided Members with a lot of information on the numbers that we had, and some of the questions were on the detail of why those numbers came to be. I absolutely take the Member's point. I will work with the departments to ensure that, as we go forward or we debate another capital estimate, that we have the level of detail that committee would need to come to a point where they are going to support the supplementals that are brought forward.

I will make that commitment. We will work with the department. Our folks went back and we did a lot of work in a short period of time to try to get you some of the information that we had promised you this morning, but the Member is absolutely correct. We can expand on that. We would think that, with the more detail you have, the better informed that you would be to make a decision on the supplementary estimates. I will make that commitment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I appreciate the commitment on the part of the Minister, because some of these notes are dated May 14th and so on. This is clearly information that was generated internally for your own internal approvals through the FMB, or whatever, and it would helpful to be able to share that with us.

I take the Minister's commitment seriously that he is going to look at this, so I don't have anything further in terms of opening remarks. I will have some more detailed questions and comments on some of the items as we go through the package. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Testart.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think it is fair to be concerned around carry-overs, but my question for the Minister is: does this represent a cash flow problem? When we look at the totality of the carry-overs, that is where the concern seems to be raised, but do we have a cash flow problem as it relates to these carry-overs? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we don't believe it is a cash flow problem. I mean, we do anticipate some lapses and that as we go into the capital estimates. As far as the Member's question, I mean, we do try to get these projects out the door as quickly as possible, but the short answer to the Member's question is that we don't believe it is a cash flow problem. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Not to get into detail at this point, but there are a number of road projects or the Stanton Territorial Hospital that are reflected in some of these carry-overs. Are those projects experiencing any delays because of the carry-overs? I mean the ones where the work has already been undertaken. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we don't believe that it is affecting the work at all or that there is a problem with the cash flow. The biggest project we have in the works, Stanton, is still going on. Like I said, the money has been appropriated and approved by this Assembly in last fall's capital budget. That project is still on time.

We have some challenges in trying to roll as many of these projects out the door as we can, but the departments have been working hard and trying to ensure that we get these contracts let. We have different reasons for why some of these contracts are, and I think the made the commitment to clarify a lot of the information that we share with committee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for the clarification. Nothing further. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. McNeely.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am quite satisfied with the tabled document here summarizing the separate items and the numbers, and I look forward to going into the detail of the supplementary. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. The Member is noting his satisfaction. Seeing no further general comments, will committee please to turn page 6 of the tabled document. The first few pages are just summary information. The first votable item is on page 6, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Do we have comments or questions on page 6? Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I see that this section includes the money for the portables at Ecole St. Joseph, and my question is: given the timing of this appropriation and the timing of the need for these portables, will they be in place by the start of the new school year? Does the Minister know? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the quick answer is yes, they will be in place. Thank you.