Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess maybe I should have made myself a little bit clearer. I understand the government system and how to work with that. What I am talking about is a person who is not in the government system, who has the qualifications but, say, doesn't have writing skills up to snuff but has the experience of five, 10 years in there. Does the department or does the government allow the opportunity to set up training plans? Because I know in the past we have been able to. I have seen it happen, where we found an individual and set him up to take the training position for the job. I guess my question is: do we still do these types of things, or is it just now based on competition? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Stewart.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Two things on that: there still are training positions that departments can use if they want to hire somebody, and that feeds into the regional recruitment program that I am sure the Member is aware of. Then the other program we started last year is something called the gateway program, where we have provided funding to departments to go out, and we put out calls for applications on this for somebody who maybe doesn't quite have the skills to work in a government position yet and for various things, but it provides departments with funding to have them work part-time and then get education upgrades at the same time. We really see that as an opportunity, for maybe those residents who are out there who may be fell short in high school or weren't able to complete or did some sort of post-secondary, to help them get back while they are still getting some employment experience which would put them into a position to be able to compete for jobs. So that is a new program we have launched this fiscal year. I think we are starting to get some applications in. I think it's 15 or 20 who we have supported so far, but I have a lot for that as a pathway in for people to get a little experience and a little education and move into permanent employment with the government. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Nothing further from Mr. Thompson. Anything further from committee on human resources? Seeing none, I will call the activity. Finance, human resources, operations expenditure summary, $21,039,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Please turn to the next activity, information systems shared services, ISSS. Comments or questions on this activity? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. In the main estimates, on 149 is the number of active positions, and it only increases by eight people between the two years. Is this where this integrated shared services systems unit or whatever it's called, ISSS, is being moved into? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Deputy Minister Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, this is the information systems shared services unit, so this is the initiative that we have talked to the committee about, of basically consolidating all of the resources from across government into one unit to do information systems development. Really, the genesis of that was a review that was done and a recognition that there is an awful lot of this work being done in government; often it was not being coordinated particularly well, and you had different departments doing different things, and that led to duplication and those sorts of things. The other thing that came out of the review was just the ability to take advantage for career pathing and training and to learning from each other, so the decision was to set up this shared services unit and have a governance model around it that would keep departments getting the services they need. Really, it reflects the demand for an increasing number of services online and those sorts of things, so we are really structuring ourselves to be able to move in a much more major way into that area. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister Stewart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Okay. I accept that the work was done. Why, the active positions, is there only an increase of eight? I thought there were like 78 people or something who were being moved from different departments into finance. How many people are moving into finance as a result of the establishment of this new unit? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Deputy Minister Stewart.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. The main estimates reflect the restatement from various departments, but I can provide for the Member a little detail behind that. Sixty-nine of those positions, of the 88 positions for 2019-2020, are transfers from other departments, so it reflects that consolidation. Eleven positions were existing in finance because the office of CIO was already there. As well, we had a couple of these types of position in the department already. There was one position that was re-profiled from existing resources to create another project management position. There was initiative funding for four positions that related to making sure that we provide the level of support we need to departments. Then, finally, there was another initiative that was not related to the consolidation but was related to providing e-service, where we are setting up a small service unit in Fort Smith that will provide I call it "virtual GSO-type service," so that people who are trying to do online services can actually reach out and phone somebody to get help, if they need, for service delivery across the GNWT that is done on an e-service basis. That is being set up this year, as well. That is where you get to the 88 total, so 69 come from other departments and then some from finance and a little bit from initiative funding. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister Stewart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So where are these 69 people actually going to be housed, which building? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Deputy Minister Stewart.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think the initial plan is they will be in three different locations. Some will be in the gallery building. There was already a shared service unit for Lands, ENR, and ITI, and we will use the space that was there. Some will be in the Laing Buildings, where the office of the CIO was. There may be some swapping out of space. Then the third sort of focal point will be in Northwest Tower, what I affectionately call "the green building." There is some space that we were able to get through infrastructure for a third spot there. Obviously, ideally, we would like to have everybody come together, but this is a rather large unit, so many departments have multiple locations, and we will just have to work with this for the time being, until we can maybe consolidate into a single location. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister Stewart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So do all of these people move on April 1st? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Deputy Minister Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It probably won't happen right on April 1st. I think we are doing a staging plan now. We certainly want them all in place by June 1st, but office moves and those sorts of things, as you know, are a little bit complicated. We are getting down into that detailed office layout. We kind of have a rough sense of where everyone is going at this point, and then we will start to get that detailed planning, but we do not want to get too far into the fiscal year without having everybody in the locations they need to get to. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister O'Reilly -- or Deputy Minister Stewart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am not sure if that is a promotion or a demotion. I know there are some people who would like to demote me here.
---Laughter
More seriously, what systems do we have in place to evaluate outcomes here? I am not talking about convenience for people who work for the government. I am talking about client service. How is the effectiveness of this move, massive move, of resources into Finance going to be evaluated? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Deputy Minister Stewart.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Part of the process that we are going through and one of the first things that we will be working on is we have a rough sense of what should be in an accountability framework and, certainly, departments are very interested to make sure that they don't lose any of the service that they are getting now. We are trying to look at this on a broader sector basis so that we can include accountability around the other components of information systems, but also that information technology and information management as well to come up with a sector-level set of indicators, but we will absolutely have a specific set of metrics that we will be tracking to make sure that this is working in terms of the same level of service, if not improved service, and better consistency, and those sorts of things, and then reporting out on the progress they are making. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister Stewart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Can I get a commitment, then, out of the Minister? Because I don't think I have actually seen this evaluation framework or accountability framework or whatever the department wants to call it. Can I get a commitment out of the Minister to share that with the appropriate standing committee? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
It's not like we're trying to make work, or anything like that.
---Laughter
No, I know, I know. Everybody heard me because the mic was on. I was just saying that this whole exercise we are going through is not a make-work project. It is just that we are trying to improve services across the Northwest Territories to the public and to our GNWT employees. So going back to the Member's question, I will commit to sharing the information with the appropriate committee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I guess some of the questions I have are, I remain to be convinced that this is actually going to improve services, but can the Minister commit to providing even an interim report before the end of this Assembly to the standing committee on how this is working out? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister McLeod.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Like I said before, this is hoping to improve services. I mean, we can't predetermine the outcome and condemn it to failure before it has even gotten off the ground, but what I can commit to do to the Member, the Members -- not the Member, the Members -- is provide them an update when we come to our May/June session, because I think we will have a pretty good indication then of how the move is going and an early indication of some of the improvements that are bound to happen. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. I will allow one more, if there is any. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, with my five seconds. I guess I am just a bit surprised, more than a bit surprised, that there is no accountability framework, no evaluation framework for this now. We are talking about moving 69 people around GNWT into the Department of Finance without an accountability framework, a way of measuring the success of this, so I am more than worried about this. I will wait and see what the Minister is able to provide to standing committee in terms of the evaluation framework and then in the interim report, but I guess I have heard concerns from constituents as well about this. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. I didn't see a question or hear a question in there. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am just looking for some clarity on this new division here. My understanding is, right now, there are people within the department, employees, who develop computer programs and implement technological solutions to serve that department, and what is happening is that all of those positions from the departments are moving into Finance into this central division. Is that correct? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister McLeod.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. That is correct.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Simpson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am also concerned about this. Over the years, we have seen the centralization of some government services, and the results, from what I have heard, haven't been the greatest.
If you talk to anyone in the government who has ever tried to hire someone, they are not particularly thrilled with the way HR works, and from what I understand, there was a time when hiring was done sort of within the departments. Not entirely, but much more so. The departments seem happier with that, and it was generally quicker. The Department of Infrastructure has taken back control over procurement of all items over $50,000 and, from what I understand, departments now have difficulty procuring items. You know, we can't spend half the money that we allocate for procurement. Financial shared services has also been recently created, and it has been taken out of the departments and the people who directly use those into a central, you know, area in Finance, and now the people in the departments don't have a relationship with the Finance person anymore. Now it is just they contact Finance, and that person might not be very familiar with what goes on in their department, and I know that has caused issues in some departments.
Now, we are doing the same thing with these tech positions. So there are people right now who develop and design programs for use by departments, and they are working there on the front lines with the people who use those programs, and that creates a good feedback loop. If there are issues, they can talk directly to those people.
Now, there is going to be this gap between them and there is going to be the group of tech people and there is going to be the group of people on the front line, and they are not going to be dedicated to one project, and so they are not going to have that relationship. I foresee issues, and I don't know why this was done so soon after financial shared services and without an evaluation of how things are going in human resources and without an evaluation of how the departments like the new procurement services. Because, from everything I can tell, no one is really happy with it.
Even, you know, contractors. Before, if they had a contract with a department to procure something, they knew the people in that department. They could contact them. If there were problems with payments, they knew who to contact. Now, you contact Finance. It is some nameless person behind a desk somewhere in Yellowknife, and they have no idea what is going on with that person's project.
So I see a lot of problems with these sort of centralizations that have already happened, and yet we are going ahead with a new one. So the question is about what sort of measurements we are going to use to measure the success of this is almost moot because these measurements should have been done over the years on these other departments, and I don't think they have been.
I understand why there might be some need to reorganize. You know, you want to have people working together who are doing similar things, but I don't know if a massive organization all at once is the way to go about it. I remember one deputy minister said to me in the business plans, and it wasn't related to this, it was about something else, but no matter how you organize government, it is about communication. I see that now we are just organizing it, but we are not putting any thought toward communication. I have grave concerns about this, and I think this is ill-informed, and, you know, I don't know if I can support the budget on this alone, seeing what we have seen in the past with the other sorts of amalgamations. I just wanted to let the department. I don't really have a question. It was just a comment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Simpson. Minister McLeod, to the comment.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. I think it is only fair that I respond to the comment from the Member. I can understand his concern. I have been through the system quite a few times in all my years of work, and I am not sure if many in here remember the Department of Personnel days. There was a Department of Personnel which was much like HR now, and they went into the different departments. They did a lot of their own hiring. I know a number of people who were involved in those different departments, and they were comfortable there, and then they amalgamated into the department of HR. What that did, although initially a lot of them didn't like the move, it kind of broadened their horizon where, if you were working in an education department, for example, then you are used to hiring teachers. Then all of a sudden, you are working on hiring people for the department of public works, so it gave them a lot of different views on different departments within the governments.
I mean, I can understand the Member's concern, and we will have to see how this plays out. Let's not condemn things to fail before they even start. There might be an opportunity here for all of these people to come together and expand their knowledge. From working with one department on a particular project, they can expand their knowledge, and that may help them in the future.
It is unfortunate for the Member to say that he may not be able to support the budget based on this one particular issue when we have a budget of $1.9 billion that is beneficial for every riding in the Northwest Territories. It is a budget that a lot of people look forward to, and it is helping people in the Northwest Territories. I find that it is unfortunate that that is the Member's position, but I respect his position.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Further questions on this activity? Seeing none, I will call this activity here. On page 147, Finance, information systems shared services, operations expenditures summary, $19,362,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
I understand that dinner is here, so we will take a short break for something to eat.
---SHORT RECESS
I will call the committee back to order. Committee, we were on information systems shared services. Did we call that one? Sorry, committee. We are on management board secretariat. My apologies. It has been a long day for all of us. This activity begins on page 150. Do we have comments or questions from committee? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am hoping that one of our friends here can tell me what the current balance is in the NWT Heritage Fund. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
