Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are doing a lot of work in this particular area. Wolves and harvesters are just part of the work that we are doing. Those seem to be the ones that are highlighted all the time, so those are the ones that would get the most attention, but there is a lot of work that goes on as part of our regular work within the management of caribou. I am going to, through you, Mr. Chair, go to Dr. Dragon to give us an explanation of some of the work that we have ongoing. Thank you.
Thank you. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just thought that I would go through the next steps of what we look to do with the range plan so that the Members can understand the process of what needs to be done. We are going to have a "what we heard" document for all of the consultation that we have been doing with our Indigenous government partners and a decision paper by the end of this fiscal year. It is imminent, as I mentioned. One of the things that we have to do with that range plan, because we are in the Wek'eezhii area is that we have to go to the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board for review, as per section 12.5 of the Tlicho agreement, and to also provide the proposed range plan to standing committee.
In terms of recommendations, we are looking at a number of recommendations within that plan, intensifying project mitigation as cumulative disturbance increases, and that is one of the areas where I thought that we needed to have a look at any new development that is being put into play. We are looking at transmission lines. We are looking at any new Terra X development. Anything that is current, we put in that plan so that we can make a really good decision on the plan. Again, this includes thresholds for limiting development under existing disturbances and making sure that they are restored.
We are also looking at the conservation of the Bathurst caribou calving and post-calving grounds and important water crossings and land crossings. As the Member mentioned, also, more mobile caribou conservation measures, so looking at the core areas within the Bathurst caribou zone, managing roads and traffic, and adding patches of unburnt forest in the winter range to our values at risk. That is another initiative that we are doing, along with the wolves, is we are looking at how we are currently addressing forest fire in the Bathurst range. Right now, unfortunately, with the herd that they are in terms of the size, at 8,200 animals, they are right now not really in any of the forested areas. They are more above the treeline. Unfortunately, right now, with their numbers, we don't see a lot of them within the treeline.
We are going to return to Cabinet after, with the results of the WRB conversation, the SCEDE review, and then we will request the final approval of the range plan. Then we will move into the implementation phase of that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the description of that, but I guess I am worried that, by the time we get through all of those steps, there may not be any caribou left. $150,000 was cut from boreal caribou monitoring in last year's budget. The Minister said that there was going to be additional funding on the way to make up for that. Our requirements for boreal caribou continue to increase. We have to have a recovery strategy. There is going to be more monitoring required as a result of the Tlicho all-season road. Where is the money for boreal caribou work? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We want to do a thorough job on the work that we do, and we don't have much choice. We can't make a unilateral decision. We have committed to working with our Aboriginal partners on trying to move this forward. Again, credit to our Aboriginal partners; they recognize that this is a serious issue, and they want to move forward as well. I think it is going to carry a lot more weight, and it is going to go a lot further in partnership with the Aboriginal governments.
As far as the boreal caribou, in responding to questions from the Member for Yellowknife North during oral questions earlier this afternoon, I did mention that we are looking at possibly making some type of an announcement here shortly.
I take the Member's point. I remember distinctly last year saying that the $150,000 was going to be eliminated, but we are working with Canada to try to secure some funding. My understanding is that within the next few days year, or during the life of this session, we should be able to make an announcement to address the concerns that the Member is raising. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Next, I have Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In regard to this section here, bison management control and developing plans there, can the Minister advise: have they been looking at the herd around Fort Liard and Nahanni Butte? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In the Member's riding, a draft Nahanni bison management plan has been revised following an internal ENR review, and it will go out for a broader GNWT review. In the Nahanni population, currently, there are seven male tags only available, and once the population has reached 1,000 animals, a male-only harvest of between 1 to 2 percent could be implemented, as per the management plan. I think that the short answer to the Member's question is yes, we are looking at three different herds of bison in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. He said three herds. The three herds are by Fort Providence, Fort Smith, and the Fort Liard and Nahanni Butte area? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have the Mackenzie Population. I guess that would be by Fort Providence. The Nahanni Population would be in Fort Smith, and then we have the Slave River Lowlands Population. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you. I am assuming that the Nahanni Population is by Nahanni Butte and Fort Liard. Correct? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, I think that they all decided to move to a safer location. No, I don't think that the Member was going to give up until I gave him the actual information. The Nahanni Population is the Nahanni Butte population, and the Slave River Lowlands is Fort Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Recently the CBC came out with an article with two researchers, one from the University of Montana and one from the University of Saskatchewan, talking about culling wolf populations to help caribou, and they were saying it doesn't work. I understand that the Minister spoke to this on the floor here with Mr. Vanthuyne, but can the Minister advise: have we come up with a solution? Have our researchers and our staff worked with local Aboriginal groups to come up with a plan? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Exactly, Mr. Chair. As we travelled through the Tlicho, listening to elders talk and listening to an 87-year-old elder in the Tlicho saying that he has hunted caribou his whole life, and he always believed that the wolves are a major predator. He told us that they take between 30 to 35 caribou apiece. I mean, I recognize that the Member was referencing a couple of comments that were made by one outside Canada, in Montana, and one in Saskatchewan. I am not sure what their connection to the Northwest Territories is, or if they know where it is on the map, but I would take the word of our elders over any person who doesn't make this their home. We rely on the words of the folks who have lived in that area their whole life.
We have worked with them in coming up with a plan, and we also work with our co-management partners. We have a very close working relationship with the Tlicho government right now, and again, to their credit, they recognize the importance of the preservation of the caribou herd for their future generations.
I am going to go back to a comment that I heard when we were visiting Whati. There was a gentleman there who is 87 years old, and he said, "I have hunted caribou my whole life. I have had the opportunity to hunt caribou and live off caribou. What can I do to help, to make sure that my children and my grandchildren enjoy the same privilege that I had?" Of all the words I have heard on the caribou in all the conversations I have had, I thought those were the wisest words I have ever heard as far as the caribou go. It is that type of advice that we take to heart. If they say wolves are a problem, I believe them. If they say wolves are going to make a difference in saving some of the caribou, I believe them, and I think we should.
My understanding is: in our zone, I think we have taken about 20 wolves so far. If you listen to the elders, they say they can take between 30 and 35 animals. Twenty wolves at 30 animals, that is 600 caribou we may have saved. It is one of the steps that we are going to take and try to preserve the caribou herd. It all goes back to this traditional knowledge and listening to those who have the most expertise. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have gone on a little too long. I apologize for that.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am not worried. I greatly appreciate the Minister providing this information because, again, when we have news coming out and saying things and we have these researchers, that is why I was asking the question. Is our staff working with the Aboriginal population, using traditional knowledge? At the end of the day, that is where we do things. I just wanted to make sure that we were following that practice. I greatly appreciate that. Again, elders are very wise. The reason why they are there is they have lived a long time and they know a lot of stuff. I know, in my riding, the team from ENR does work with the Aboriginal groups really well. That is part of their knowledge base. I would just like to thank the Minister for his answer. No further questions at this point in time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Another round for Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I understand I am only supposed to have one. Sometimes the questions and answers go on for a bit. I want to talk about the wolf incentive program. I appreciate what the Minster said in the House earlier about outside experts. There was a working group established, including experts from his own department, the Tlicho Government, and other Indigenous governments. They ranked and rated 12 different options for dealing with wolves. The top option was aerial shooting on the cabin grounds. The next one was summer harvest assistance. The next one was diversionary feeding. You have to go more than halfway down the list to find winter harvesting.
This study, published by the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board, shows that the wolf incentive program is not the most effective way to take out wolves. For this to actually work and have an impact on the caribou populations, you have to take out between 60 and 80 percent of the wolf population. I don't think this is going to work, the wolf incentive program. That is what I am fearing. That is what the experts said on the radio, as well. Given this study, why is the department pursuing this incentive program, increasing the wolf bounty? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In looking at this issue of trying to address the wolf situation, in every community that we went through, as the Minister mentioned, we had very, very strong comments in terms of wolves and what we could do. Being in the Wek'eezhii area, we cannot change a program or come in with a different type of program without submitting a proposal to the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board. We are currently in the process of doing that. We look to have one done shortly that we would have. It would only come into effect in June of this year. If we did nothing, if we didn't look at having an incentive program, we wouldn't have been able to do anything with wolves.
The other thing that we heard when we went into communities was that it costs a lot to go out on the land. We tried, in the department, in a previous version, increasing the amount of money that we had available for wolves. It didn't work. People came back to us and said, "It is not enough money." We went to communities. What we did was we asked them, "How much would it take for you to have the incentive to come in this region?" The last three years, we have averaged in this North Slave region in between 30 and 40 wolves. To date, we already have 20, and the season for doing that type of hunting hasn't really started. It is starting as of the beginning of March.
We have also had a discussion with our partners in Nunavut because, although the options are provided to go and do actual hunting on cabin grounds, that jurisdiction is in Nunavut. We have no say in terms of what Nunavut can do on their lands. They have to go through the same process of the Nunavut Wildlife Management Board to get authority to do any sort of reduction exercise.
In looking at the option, we decided we would increase the prices to see whether or not we would have people who would go into those regions. What we found is we have had people who are now saying, "You know what? I am thinking about it." We have a lot of the areas where we have hunters who have now, unfortunately, gotten older and don't go in to do that sort of hunting. If we don't have harvesters in that area, we can't reduce that population.
That is how we approached the situation. It is the only thing that we could really do before June 1st. We decided to increase the levels of the harvest prices. We have had some exceptional feedback from harvesters who are telling us, "Thank you. It is about time." Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I thank the deputy minister for that information. In the additional joint management proposal that is being prepared for the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board, what will it contain in terms of predator control? I just want it highlights, please. I don't need all the details because I still have a couple of other questions if I can get to them. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Briefly, Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We haven't finalized it yet. We are working with our Tlicho partners to come up with a plan going forward. As the Member said, this program here has been beneficial to help them to take some of the wolf population out as well as assisting in helping our contractors. We could do it by air, but who will benefit from that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Will there be a management proposal or a predator control proposal submitted to the Nunavut Wildlife Management Board to help protect the Bathurst caribou herd? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Yes, there will.
Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Well, that is some good news. I look forward to getting further details on that. I do want to pass along some of the concerns that I have heard about the wolf bounty or wolf incentive program. People are worried about caribou being used as bait, potentially. There was a media report from earlier this week about meat wastage on the winter road. People are worried about collateral damage to other species as people go out there, particularly over harvesting of wolverines.
My colleague from Yellowknife North also mentioned hunter safety issues. Some of the people who may be going out may not be as experienced as they could or should be, or maybe not as well prepared as they could be. There was at least one incident last year where someone got lost on the winter road. What steps are the department taking to try to deal with these concerns and issues? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, let's give some credit to the folks who go out there. These are people who are experienced hunters, and wolves are what they are after. If they try to use caribou as bait, they could get charged for that. We will come down hard on that. I have heard of stories, not here, where caribou was used as bait. Credit to the local hunters' and trappers' associations, they got after those. To me, that is just ignorant, and it shouldn't be done. Let's give them some credit. I don't think they will be doing that.
As far as collateral damage, it is wolves they are after. I don't think they will be just shooting everything that comes their way. They may take the odd wolverine because there is some incentive just on the fur itself. I don't think it's going to be the Wild West up there, and I do trust the judgment of a lot of folks who go up there. We monitor it. We have 24-hour monitoring. We have a couple of check stops that are there. I've heard from a couple of people saying that they were going in there, and they were actually getting their vehicles checked on the way in to make sure they weren't bringing dump wolves in there, because those aren't the ones that we want. We're doing a lot of work on this, and I'm giving credit to the experience of those that are out there. If those that have no experience go out there, I think they're going to find out awfully quickly they're in over their head.
Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the response from the Minister. I don't necessarily agree with these concerns. I'm just passing them on from what I heard, and I meant no disrespect to any harvesters who might go out there. If folks are not experienced and not well-prepared, things can go badly sometimes. I don't think anybody wants that to happen, but these are concerns that I'm hearing, and I'm passing them onto the Minister.
I don't have any other questions about this, other than to say that I am very, very concerned that there is no money in the budget for the caribou crisis. We should have anticipated this, and there should have been some money in here for that, and I'm very disturbed that it's not. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Would the Minister care to respond?
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I didn't mean to go after the messenger, but I'm just a little bit passionate about this. As far as money in the budget for the caribou, I did say earlier that I had given direction to the department to come forward with a plan on dealing with the caribou, as well as my response to questions from the Member from Yellowknife North on the funding that we're hoping to be announcing here during the life of this session, and I think it will be well-received. As well, I've directed the department to try and identify more funding for a lot of the work that we need to do with our Aboriginal partners, because we can't make unilateral decisions. Those days are over. We have to work with our Aboriginal partners now, and all those who are affected by this, because it's the only way it's going to work. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. McNeely.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to recognize the concern from the Member from Frame Lake. I truly feel his concern for the caribou, but I'm quite satisfied with the department's allocation of funds, having participated in the SSI bilateral meetings last year, and I understand there's one coming up here again. I know caribou conservation and preservation and range planning is all on the agenda, so I'm satisfied with where that agenda and that discussion are going. For those reasons, I support the department's initiative towards caribou conservation and recovery and range planning. I know there's been quite an invested interest in the cost of the surveys, in the neighbourhood of $6 million, so recognizing that commitment along with the department's allocation of funds, the continuation of that dialogue, I thank the department for putting up with a lot of the statements I've heard from some of the community leaders far exceeding what really is actually happening out there. Some of us don't even go out there, including myself, very seldom. Like the Minister said, we take the traditional knowledge point of view at heart there, and those are the meaningful dialogue that's going on. Cutting it short, I'm satisfied. Thank you.
Thank you. Anything from the Minister? Minister.
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Member's comments. My commitment to this Assembly and to the people out there is we will work with our Aboriginal governments because, as I said before, we can't make unilateral decisions on the preservation of caribou. The only way it's going to work is if we have a partnership approach, and good on some of the Aboriginal governments for recognizing that and working with us. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Environment and Natural Resources, wildlife, operations expenditures summary, $14,560,000. Does committee agree?
