Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to just switch for the next question to the contributions. I'm wondering if the Minister has had any discussions with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs to get a feel for the amount of maybe carry-over that municipalities have. Right now, the municipalities are getting a fairly steady amount of money, just at this point $29 million, and I recognize that it's gone up very slowly, but I'm wondering if the reason is that the communities are having a carry-over. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the things that we've heard from communities, and the Member is right, the infrastructure contribution to the communities has gone up. I think we were at $27,002,000 for most of my time as a Minister in this government, and we've brought it up to $29 million, and I think that's what we're asking this Assembly to approve.
One of the challenges that we hear from the communities, and there may be surpluses, they may have capital surpluses, because there are a number of different pots; they have the CPI funding, they have the Gas Tax funding, they have a number of programs they can access. I think that's why you see some communities, and we've heard it from some of the smaller communities that are challenged with the O and M portion of it, and that's another debate for the upcoming 19th, their first O and M budget session, I think they will need to have those conversations, but I think MACA has given them authorization, I believe, to use up to 10 percent of their capital budget to go towards O and M, because that's where their biggest challenge is.
I don't think it's a lack of infrastructure funds. I'm not sure what the carry-overs would be, or what their surpluses would be. I suppose, if we had to, I could work with the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs to get that information and provide it to committee, if we're able to. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize for calling the infrastructure contributions a "carry-over." The Minister was referring to it correctly as a surplus. So, considering that they are not carry-overs and they're surplus, then am I correct to understand that they could accumulate surplus for years and years and, at some point in the future, use the capital? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My apologies to the Member. I didn't quite catch his question but, before we go to him to clarify, we were talking about the carry-overs before. I think we were referring to surpluses, and I do have, across the NWT with all our communities, in the Gas Tax fund, there is about $3.7 million in surplus Gas Tax funding, and in the CPI funding, there is about $12.6 million total in surpluses across communities in the Northwest Territories. So, again, I think that demonstrates clearly that their challenge is not the infrastructure part of it; it's the O and M on the infrastructure dollars they're getting. Thank you, Mr. Chair. My apologies, again, to the Member. I'm sorry, I completely missed the question.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Minister presenting this capital budget here today. In my time here in the Assembly, this is the largest capital budget that we've put forward. The previous speaker, my colleague from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh, already spoke about some of the challenges as it relates to carry-overs. I know there are many facets to the challenges of carry-over. I, certainly, want to hope that the next government, we'd like to see maybe a bit of a call it a government-wide approach to try and overcome some of those challenges. I know a lot of them have to do with our relationship with the federal government as it relates to funding, and then, of course, there are capacity issues and many other types of concerns that are the root cause of carry-overs.
I do feel that we're putting out another $400 million capital budget. In our last year's budget, we had a tough time in delivering almost half of it. We don't want to see a continued build-up of carry-overs. The reason why I am very supportive of capital budgets by principle is that this is a lot of money that gets out into the communities, and this creates lots of opportunity in the communities and creates jobs and, of course, the dollars themselves result in building health centres and schools and roads and the like that support reducing the cost of living and lift up the standards of living. I'm always supportive of a capital budget.
Maybe more at the appropriate time, well, I'll make some general comments. I see in here that the Legislative Assembly, of course, is putting in $3 million to replace the water line, and that's long overdue. I would also hope that we could collaborate with our friends at the City of Yellowknife, the RCMP, and the DND to maybe have an opportunity that, while we are replacing that water line, there might be the opportunity to create a district energy system between ourselves and, say, the museum, city hall, RCMP, and DTFN building. I think that that would be a positive step, and I believe that the wheels are possibly in motion to start that undertaking. I hope that that can happen.
One thing that I will express a little bit of frustration about, that I was hoping I would be able to see in here, is a number of Members, and I'm quite sure another Member is going to raise this at some point, I wanted to see some form of investment in daycare infrastructure. I think, while it might have been just in these last six months to a year that we've really raised that as a higher priority, it wasn't necessarily brought in as a high priority for the mandate of this government. Although daycare in terms of supporting and funding daycare for allowing people to afford daycare has been in our mandate, but the actual investment in infrastructure for daycare has not. I would like to see that change in the future. I think that, when we start talking about building new schools or making major renovations to schools, we should be thinking about the design and development of daycares into those schools.
Community funding transfer gap, I won't speak to that too much because my honourable colleague from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh already spoke to that. I know the Minister respects and appreciates the challenges there, and that again, in the 19th Assembly, we're going to have to do some serious work. If that means advocating more at the federal level to get extra funds, then that might be what we might have to do. Even to go so far as to tying into the TFF or something like that; I don't know. There has got to be some way that we can get over this gap.
I do want to speak positively: I really like, again, what I've seen in here as it relates to the investments on Highway No. 4, which is Ingraham Trail. I'm always appreciative of the investments that go on out there. The residents of Ingraham Trail keep me well-attuned to any issues, and the Department of Infrastructure and this government have been fairly responsive in the four years that I've been the MLA for Yellowknife North in terms of making the right investments in Highway No. 4.
The one thing that I will say for the record, though, and I know that the Department of Infrastructure is aware of this and they have verbally given indication that they are working on this, but, in this particular capital budget, you don't see, for certainty's sake, an investment in the roadside pull-off at Big Hill Lake. I am aware that there is some work being undertaken. There's some pre-design stuff. There's some interdepartmental stuff being looked at. The government recognizes that this is a public safety issue. We're not supposed to be parking on Ingraham Trail, but a lot of people are in order to go to this new popular hiking area, so we've got to make sure that we're taking care of the public safety issue there.
For opening comments, Mr. Chair, that's about all I have, and then I will have a couple of questions as we move through the document. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. When I ran to represent the people of Kam Lake, one of my commitments was to advocate for new infrastructure investment in all of our northern communities. At that time, I called for $24 million to be invested in community public infrastructure over a four-year period. Each capital budget, I recommended this funding be allocated to our municipalities.
Unfortunately, apart from an additional $2 million, $2 million in additional funding, there has not been much change in GNWT capital budgets, and communities remain under-funded to the tune of more than $30 million. This budget is no different, sadly, while investing in many worthy projects, and does nothing to contribute to the shortfall in municipal infrastructure funding.
Mr. Chair, after four years, I cannot accept that long-awaited action plans and strategies will solve a problem that only cash can fix. Our communities are tired of waiting for this government to live up to its own funding commitments and its own funding formula. This additional resource will create jobs, drive economic growth, and prevent local governments from raising taxes or reducing services for their residents. This budget is the last opportunity to invest in community infrastructure, and without any increases to CPI funding, I cannot support it on principle. Northerners expect their governments to live up to their commitments and keep their promises. This is our own community funding formula. This is no one else's. The fact that it remains, that this gap has not been plugged over our time in office, is unacceptable to me and unacceptable to my constituents.
The Minister knows he has the votes to pass this capital plan, but I will not be one of them. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. In all the capital budgets that I've been involved in here, there was no effort to reach out to Regular MLAs and talk about what the priorities should be. Unfortunately, the same old game.
I can say that Regular MLAs did request a number of changes, and those were rejected, as well. It is the largest infrastructure acquisition plan during my time in this Assembly, and probably the largest ever. I recognize that a large portion of this is probably coming from the federal government, but they seem to be determining our priorities now.
I am also quite concerned about the potential to increase our debt. As I understand, the debt limit is $1.3 billion. We're at $1.1, and this, I think, has the potential to increase that.
I'm not going to comment on some of the other items that I've heard from my colleagues, but I support everything that they've said so far in terms of needs that may or may not be reflected in the capital budget. I don't see anything in here that I can detect about the water line replacement. The City of Yellowknife, there was a request from the city for support of $8 million to assist with that extraordinary sort of one-time cost.
There is nothing in here that I can see in terms of a plan to lengthen the Mackenzie Valley Fibre Link to our communities to provide for the promised increased or improved services for Internet in our communities up and down the valley.
There is nothing in here that I can see with regard to visitor services for new capital infrastructure, whether it's in Tuktoyaktuk, Whati, or even in Yellowknife, where the Minister has now made it public that the Northern Frontier Visitors' Centre will be demolished this winter. No new money go in the budget for visitor services, visitor facilities, for any of these three communities I've just mentioned.
I'm glad that the Minister compiled the information in his opening remarks with regard to the amount that is being spent on roads. It is basically 34 percent of the capital budget. The entire capital budget is for roads. I think that roads are important, but when they start to overshadow everything else that is in the budget, there is a problem, including decreased funding for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. How does that happen at the same time?
I think that that is a reflection of Cabinet's priorities. I have a number of questions that I wish to ask, particularly about at least a couple of the energy projects that are in here. There is a transmission line to be built to the community of Whati. I have some detailed questions that I would like to pursue at the appropriate time. I also have some questions about the replacement of the diesel plant in Lutselk'e. In both of those communities, there has been significant amount of work done in terms of many hydro potential for both of those communities, and I think even at a much reduced cost, but I guess that we will find out through questioning.
I, too, Mr. Chair, will find it difficult to support this capital budget without having had the opportunity to have any input into it, and the suggestions that have been made have been rejected, so I probably will not be supporting the capital budget. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am looking forward to the Mackenzie Valley Highway starting construction once again. We are sort of in the planning stages for the bridge still to be built, but the Minister is well-aware. He is from Inuvik, and I look forward to the day that that highway is actually built connecting right to Inuvik, because the Minister knows as well as I do how much money is spent in the Yukon at the moment. It's because everybody in the Beaufort-Delta region drives to Whitehorse to do their shopping: boats, Ski-Doos, trucks. It's all in the Yukon. There is a lot of revenue that could be staying in the NWT here. Unless you're from up there, you don't realize how much is spent in the Yukon.
I know that right now we are just planning to build to Norman Wells, but our government has to start looking forward. Just a few years ago, the plans changed to build it only to the Wells, which I still don't agree with. It's only right that it connects to Inuvik. A lot of our constituents in the Beaufort-Delta could be driving to Yellowknife by trucks, boats, Ski-Doos, you name it. There is a lot of potential.
Anybody who has driven from Whitehorse to Dawson has seen the hydro line that connects right from Whitehorse to Dawson. Any communities along the way are all connected to the hydro line, which this territory should be doing, looking forward.
There are a couple of projects here in the Mackenzie Delta. There should be more. There always should be more. I know that we do have some projects that are a little bit behind schedule that were supposed to be started last year. I am sure that this coming year will see our James Creek facility built, not quite at James Creek, but it is in the area. I still have my own concerns about that, but I am sure that we will make it happen with better planning.
Also, under airports, in the near future, we have to start planning to have emergency airstrips in each community. Tsiigehtchic is one that still doesn't have an emergency airstrip. We used to have a plane that landed there, but that is our bush pilot, Willard Hagen, you may all know as our deputy minister of Lands. He used to land in Tsiigehtchic and do the mail run. That is just on the shore of the Mackenzie River. There is a big need, and the community is always requesting an airport in the community for emergency situations, plus for when we're isolated. Those are the only comments that I have at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of concerns with this capital plan as presented here right now. There is a shortfall for municipal funding. It was an issue when I first ran, and I am hearing it again. I am hoping that the government was going to be able to try to help increase this. I know that the government is working with the federal government to try to get more money, but it has been a situation where the communities are asking for more money because they don't feel that they are getting enough.
The other concern that I have, and again, I am probably going to have some questions in regards to access roads, is that the three communities of Jean Marie, Sambaa K'e, and Nahanni Butte are talking about their access road. I know that we have put investments in it, but the communities are saying that we need better investment, because we are seeing potholes in that. That's something that the community is looking for support from the government for, as well as Sambaa K'e is looking for an all-weather road. They want to get access to what's out there. Right now, they are only accessible during the winter time by road. I am concerned, again, about the carryover. The Minister has talked to us about the carryover, making sure that we address that, and hopefully we don't see that being an issue moving forward.
The other concern that I have is about the geothermal. Again, we have this opportunity. In some of the communities that I represent right now, geothermal could be an answer to some of our power and employment issues moving forward. That there is a concern for me.
However, I have to thank the government for a number of positive things that I have seen. We are talking about the Fort Simpson long-term care unit, the 48 beds. I appreciate the government looking at that. The road to Mount Gaudet is part of the process of moving the Mackenzie Valley Highway forward, as well as the LNG power plant for Fort Simpson and some work to Highway No. 1 and the famous Highway No. 7. I do have one question for the Minister, Mr. Chair, if I am able to ask that question.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister McLeod.
Yes, I believe the Member wanted to ask a question to the table, and I think that we are prepared to answer questions. If the chair chooses, then we will respond to the Member's question.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's just one question. It's just in regards to designated authorities and their challenges of utilizing their CIP and gas tax money. It has been a challenge, I hear. Is the government, whether it's the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs or Infrastructure, willing to actually help support the community by managing some projects? Right now, their capacity is limited, especially in some of the smaller communities. They have been asking me about that.
I know that they understand that the new deal is out there, but for these small communities, it is a big issue. They can't access it if they don't have the capacity to deal with it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I know the Member and I have had discussions on this in terms of some of the communities, I don't want to say "that can't manage", but need the resources to assist them, and that is what our department does. We offer and provide services in terms of training through our School of Community Government.
The last thing that we want to do is take administration of the community. I have said this on a few occasions, that we would like our staff to do the work that we need to do at the headquarters and territorial level. We do get people who get elected into communities, but also the administration. I think the SAOs and administration is one that we are always going to seem to have a challenge with. We are there to provide support to communities to ensure that we are able to help them administer their programs and services in the communities.
I have had conversations with the Member as well as the leadership. Most recently, we have sent letters to the leadership in the communities that the Member may not have mentioned, but he understands that we are communicating and we are there to provide assistance. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Moses. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the Minister for that clarification. I am not asking them to come and administer the funding and do the co-management. I appreciate the department regional staff has reached out. What I am hearing from the communities is they are at capacity. If we get them out to do training, that is the one or two individuals who are actually operating the community. Training doesn't help. They are asking if there is some way that we could build capacity.
Minister, I understand we have talked about it. I am just telling you what I have been hearing again from the communities moving forward, is that what they are asking for is some help with project management; if it is not the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, if it is Infrastructure, because in the past we used to do that especially for the smaller communities. My next question, then, is: is part of this funding available? Could they hire somebody to do that job? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do know that MACA is more than willing to go the communities and work with them on some of the issues that they are facing. I think they are even able to be in a position to provide them some technical advice. To the Member's question, though, my understanding is they are. They can use some of that money to hire themselves a project officer or project manager to help them through that project.
I speak from first-hand experience because, during my time in MACA, I do know there were a couple of projects where the community hired a project officer who did a really nice job. The next community I had a project coming in, hired actually the same project officer come and manage their job. They have that ability. MACA is more than willing to work with a community on some technical and administrative advice. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Minister's answer. I understand what advice is. The challenge is that maybe here is an avenue that we can maybe utilize some of the funding to hire somebody, because that is what they need. They need to have somebody to help them with the project. I appreciate the Minister's answers. No further questions.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Next on the list, we have Mr. McNeely.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I support this capital plan. In looking back at the first presentation made by the Minister to the Standing Committee on Priorities and Planning on August 6th, in reviewing, as I mentioned in my Member's statement here today, the variety of expenditures and capital projects that this budget would support and also taking into account here the other investments made into asset upgrading programming, it makes me comfortable that there are supports for opportunities in the smaller communities and the communities that are impacted. I am encouraged by that and look forward to hearing in detail by the departments and working with the appropriate Ministers to ensure that benefits from these projects and ongoing O and M and upgrades to existing buildings are being done to the maximum participation by the local communities and region. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McNeely. Would the Minister like to reply? Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Am I replying to the statements made by all Members or just the Member in particular?
It was more of a comment, anyway. I just thought you might want to respond. We can carry on. Any further comments? Okay. If there are no further comments, does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in Capital Estimates 2020-2021?
Agreed
Agreed. Thank you, committee. Thank you, Members. We will start with the Legislative Assembly. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. What my point was: I was waiting for an opportunity for all Members to have their general comments. I thought, after that, I would reply to them as a whole. I thought we might have had one or two more Members who were going to make general comments. My apologies if I didn't catch that. I would like an opportunity just to respond to a couple of comments in general before we get into the detail.
This is a huge capital budget. There was some concern with the capacity. Because we are having so much money flow out the door, there will be some concerns with capacity, but we are taking steps to address that. Carry-overs were another concern. We have full concern with carry-overs. Part of that, sometimes, in the arrangements with the federal government, they require a bit more information. It takes us a little longer to try to get the projects out the door, not just information from us, but information from the areas that the projects are going into.
I think a good example is the maintenance camp that the Member for Mackenzie Delta made reference to, where it was supposed to be. The location it is in now is actually probably the best location. Because of concerns raised by the Indigenous governments up there, we have tried to work with them to find a location that was agreeable to all. That has taken a bit of time. I think this was on the books for last summer, maybe even the summer before.
Some of the questions around the money for communities, Members know that we put some money into the overall CPI funding, as I said before, was $27 million in 2000 for years, where you have about $29. That will only address part of the problem.
I do know there is a concern from the communities with the O and M funding. We have tried to make some arrangements with them on that. There will be an opportunity for the first budget in the 19th Legislative Assembly to speak to the O and M funding. I think, in this government, we put $8 million towards the over O and M funding. I would like to think that made a bit of an impact. Then, a lot of it, the costs are going up every year to do business. We tried to work with them on that.
This is a huge infrastructure budget. I think it is probably the largest one we have ever had in this government. I think $132 million of that is money that we were able to leverage from the federal government, which would allow us to put more projects on the ground and see more of our people working. I would like to get to the point where our capacity, with all the work that we have done, is so good that our folks would be able to just take advantage of all this money.
We hear concerns about contracts being let, firms from down south bidding on them. Because they have the low bid, they are given the project. They bring in all their own people, and there is not much benefit for local businesses or workers. We try to work into a lot of our projects where they take advantage. Those are still going to happen, but we have taken great steps, I think, in trying to ensure that all the local businesses and workers are able to take advantage of some of the capacity.
Again, this is a huge capital budget, and I've come to the realization that sometimes it doesn't really matter how good it may be for the people of the Northwest Territories. There's always going to be opposition to it, and some of the opposition I've seen from day one of this Assembly, and that's fine. Some of the opposition to this I've seen in the last couple of days, because we have a period coming up there where Members are going to have to hit the campaign trail. What I respect is the fact that there were some messages that I heard today that I heard from the first day of this Assembly, and those messages haven't changed. I've got respect for that.
We're all concerned, but this is a good opportunity to create some employment for the people of the Northwest Territories. The schools that we need to build will have children to put in them because we have opportunities for their parents to work; then they can go to school. We don't want them to be going to school in jurisdictions outside the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Committee, we will defer the departmental totals and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with the Legislative Assembly on page 7. Committee, we will defer the Legislative Assembly total until after consideration of the activity summary. Legislative Assembly, Office of the Clerk, infrastructure investments, $3 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed, thank you. Sorry, that was including information item on page 9. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Now, we'll go back to page 7, Legislative Assembly, total capital estimates, $3 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Page 10, Education, Culture and Employment. We'll defer the departmental total until after consideration of the activity summaries. Starting on page 12, Education, Culture and Employment, early childhood and school services, infrastructure investments, $33,798,000. Ms. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just briefly, I'd like to get an understanding about the situation with providing space for childcare within school replacements or renovations. I'm not going to make, again, the whole case for why it's important. Let's just say that it is, and that childcare construction is at a very high standard, so it's very difficult to find places that meet the requirements unless they are purpose-built. On what basis does the department decide to include childcare space in new schools and in renovations, extensive renovations to schools? Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Green. Before we move on, I'll just let committee know the information item is on page 13, but we'll go to Minister Cochrane.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Currently, within our capital budget process, childcare facilities are not identified as a capital project. We've never done that. It does need to be something, I think, that needs to be looked at in the next Legislative Assembly. However, in saying that, though, I have been working with communities. Any new school that is on the books and that I have gotten into and talked to, we're actually working closely with them; it's not only childcare centres that we're looking at. It's making schools hubs of communities. I have really been focusing with the community governments. Can they put their band offices in there? Can we get Health and Social Services a spot in there for early childhood development things? More of an inclusive hub. The answer is right now, it's not in our capital, but in the background, it's the right thing to do. We're working with communities to do that in partnership models, and we do have some uptake on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Cochrane. Ms. Green.
Thank you. I like the idea of making schools hubs. That's the point of putting gyms in schools, so that the community will go there and use it as a community centre. On what basis is childcare considered in some of these projects and not in others? For example, it's my understanding that the Colville Lake School is going to include childcare. Can the Minister confirm that, please?
Thank you, Ms. Green. Minister Cochrane.
