I call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Norn.
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 130-19(2), Supplementary Estimates, No. 2.
Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We are going to just take a short recess, 10 minutes.
---SHORT RECESS
I call committee back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 130-19(2), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2020-2021. Does the Minister of Finance have any opening remarks?
Yes, Madam Chair. I am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2020-2021. This supplementary estimates document proposes a total increase of $162.3 million, comprised of the following items:
$166.3 million for infrastructure expenditures funding for projects that were not completed in 2019-2020. This amount is fully offset by lapses and appropriations in 2019-2020.
Negative $4.4 million for adjustments to the timing of expenditures related to five infrastructure projects under the federal Investing in Canada infrastructure plan agreement. This decrease is fully offset by increases in future year project expenditures.
$448,000 for an enclosed cab snow blower for the Mike Zubko Airport in Inuvik. This amount is fully funded by the federal Airport Capital Assistance Program.
That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. I would be happy to answer any questions that the Members might have.
Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House?
Yes, please.
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses?
Thank you, Madam Chair. On the right is Jamie Koe. He's the Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance. On the left is Terence Courtoreille. He is the director of Management Board Secretariat.
Thank you, Minister. I will open the floor to general comments, and then we will go in by detail afterwards. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. The size of this supplementary estimate is a bit surprising. I think it is $166 million. We passed the capital budget in the previous Assembly, if I remember this correctly. I think it was in the neighbourhood of about $240 million. Can I just get an explanation as to whether this is the largest supplementary appropriation we have made and some explanation as to the size of this? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Madam Chair, I don't know if it's the largest ever. I'm not sure if either of our witnesses might. I'm getting a nod, so I'm going to assume, then, that it is, Madam Chair. Then they asked for a general explanation or if we'd like to summarize some of the major components thereof? I'm not sure what direction the Member would like to go with that.
Thank you, Minister. Member, did you want to clarify?
Thanks, Madam Chair. I don't mind a general explanation at a high level. I'm also cognizant that I've got eight and a half minutes left on the clock, so I don't want an explanation that's going to gobble up two minutes of time. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Madam Chair, the largest number of the projects that are impacted here are the Investing in Canada infrastructure projects. Those are the ones that make up the largest chunk of this particular supplementary appropriation request. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Okay, thanks for that explanation. Can I get a sense of how much of this supplementary appropriation is the result of carry-overs from the previous year? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have a percentage here. Sorry, Madam Chair, I don't have the math right in front of me. I have two different numbers. Perhaps I'll ask if one of the two witnesses has the total number so that I'm not sitting and doing the math while the Member is waiting.
Mr. Koe.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Maybe I misunderstood the question. Is the Member asking how much of the carry-over was carried over in the previous year, as well? Thank you.
Member, can you just clarify your question?
Thanks, Madam Chair. Can I get, as a percentage of this supplementary appropriation, how much of it is carried over from the previous financial year? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Mr. Koe.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Compared to the last main estimates approved in 2019-2020, this carry-over consists of about just over 40 percent, 40.2 percent. Thank you.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, that's great because it accords with the table I'm looking at. Can I get some sense of the trend of the carry-overs over time? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Madam chair, certainly, a percentage of the total carry-overs from subsequent years certainly, this is the largest percentage over the course of several other years. The average hovers at just over 12 percent. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. That's the issue here. In the past, it was as small as 12 percent, but now it's up to 40. I guess I'd like to understand why we're having this much carry-over in infrastructure spending from one year to the next. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Certainly, the 42.5 is a much higher number than what I would like to see, as well. I'm cognizant of that. I don't disagree with the Member in that regard. As far as this particular year, quite a number, as I'd mentioned at the outset, of this is relating to the Invest in Canada infrastructure plan, which was a significant project funding program put forward by the federal government, of which we were able to benefit quite a bit from, but it meant that we simply weren't able to carry through and will complete all of those projects. Some of the individual projects have their own individual explanations for why that might have been. For example, the wind project up in Inuvik required further study even afterwards. Then there is also a diesel plant which is now moving forward, but it just took a bit more time to get moving forward on that particular plan because of planning requirements. Each one of these has its own reason. I can certainly go through each one, Madam Chair, but the overall is that there was a large influx of money and that it simply does take a lot of planning and a lot of capacity to get through that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. The reason why I'm raising this is I was in the last Assembly. We saw this trend of increasing amounts of carry-overs from one year to the next. I took the previous Finance Minister to task over this and suggested that we needed to have some way of tracking what the reason was over time as to why we can't get the money out the door, why we can't do the spending. This is increasingly critical during this pandemic, that we find ways to get money out the door to help stimulate our economy. As the largest driver in our economy, we have to get the money out the door. I need to understand whether this is cashflow problems with the federal government? Is it that we don't have enough capacity to get procurement done in a timely fashion? Is it issues around the contractor capacity is maxed out? What is the problem? Is there a systematic way of tracking what the issue is in terms of getting this money out the door? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, there is not one single reason, but there are a number of reasons. I would certainly say I would like to have a better way of tracking. I would like to ensure we can track exactly those reasons and see what trends there are. Without knowing exactly how we would do that, I would like to make a sort of tentative commitment that we'll be doing that kind of tracking. Again, in this particular case, it was as bad as it was largely because of these particular projects. Quite a large number of large projects all came available for funding all at the same time, which did maximize GNWT capacity in terms of procurement, in terms of project management. It also maximized just local industry capacity and the ability to actually find the contractors in communities to deliver on those projects. Those are two explanations, both at the procurement stage and at the delivery stage. That said, as far as more specifics, Madam Chair, it would be my intention to be back here next year with a much more detailed analysis of those specifics. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON (MS. SEMMLER): Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I lived through a previous commitment by the last Finance Minister to start tracking this, and clearly the work hasn't been done. I don't know what the problem is, but we need to have a systematic way of tracking why there is so much carry-over. Look, this government, this Cabinet has identified mega-projects, large infrastructure projects, as the way forward for our economy. I don't personally agree with that, but, if we can't get the money out the door -- because 40 percent carry-over from one year to the next, we need to know what the problem is, what the obstacles are, and start fixing it. I don't want a weak commitment. I want a strong commitment from the Minister that she is going to fix this problem. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Obviously, the priorities of the Assembly are the priorities of the Assembly and not only those of Cabinet. This is not the first time that I've had the chance to hear what previous Finance Ministers may or may not have done. I have no difficulty in saying that I am who I am, and I intend to follow through on promises that I make. Madam Chair, I have already gone through the process of asking the department why I see certain words over and over again, giving me general explanations. If there is an explanation, then we should be following through on it and fixing the problem. In some cases, there will not be an explanation other than we had an opportunity to take a lot of money from the federal government and we did take that opportunity. I think we'll be able to do a better analysis. Can I promise that we will solve every one of the bottlenecks in the next 12 months, given that we're going to be operating under a COVID challenge this summer in some capacity or another? Certainly not. I can certainly come back here in the future, when there are further carry-overs, because there will be further carry-overs, and be able to give a better analysis, project-by-project, as to why that is and where the bottlenecks are. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further general comments to the supplementary appropriations? Seeing no further general comments, we will move to the supplementary estimates by department. Committee has agreed to begin the review with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. I will now open the floor to general comments on the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures. I think that is on page 6. Member for Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Further to my colleague's point about the delay in getting infrastructure projects out, I see here a reference to the JH Sissons School planning study, which I would like to confirm, first of all, is complete. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Madam Chair, I am not sure if the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment would know, in fact, if the planning is complete. I believe it is, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, would you be able to answer that?
Sorry, could the Member please repeat the question?
