Masi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it's very difficult to accept that. The 150 caribou is obviously stored in the freezer will not be presented in court, the actual meat. It will be stored in a freezer and freezer burnt and such, and after a year, five years, nobody will want that kind of meat. Madam Chair, for $150,000 that can create a teacher position in the community or a renewable resource officer position that can monitor these illegal hunters. I think we can go more we can do more with this money than an actual freezer where we can have footage of pictures, have the pictures presented. It's always been a case where court proceedings, evidence is always pictures. It's not actual caribou in a courtroom. So I find that hard to believe, where we're pushing for this freezer into this budget area of ENR where I feel that they should be expended elsewhere. And I you know, the Minister came out with some arguments of 150 illegal caribou that's been hunted but it will not be presented in a courtroom. The actual caribou meat per se, Madam Chair, so. It's very hard to justify, approving this 150,000 for a freezer that's, I don't think it's needed. We've been doing without it all these years. And, yes, there's been illegal hunt, but, you know, after we do captures of all the evidence, the pictures, the case, the reports, then give out the meat. Why sit on the meat? Like, it's badly needed in the communities. We're forced not to hunt in our own backyard and share. We have to store them until such years. I'm not sure how long. So, yeah, Madam Chair, just it's frustrating sitting here and looking at this $150,000. It can be much better spent elsewhere. Let's hire more officers. Let's hire traditional hunters to work with these ENR officers. That's better well spent than the freezer. That's my take, Madam Chair. Masi.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I mean I certainly sympathize that it's a lot of money for what it's, you know, essentially being portrayed as being an evidence locker but, in this particular case, because they are dealing with obviously hunters, if, in fact, a case is found where the hunter may not have been hunting illegally, well then that meat needs to go back to that hunter and their family; it wouldn't necessarily get distributed to other members of other communities. So I think that's part of the challenge that is faced, and is particularly in the North Slave Region where, I understand, there are smaller freezers available for smaller for other communities to store meat generally. But in this case, the amount of meat that is being seized in the North Slave Region as a result of investigation processes before the resolution of the file is putting them in a situation where, you know, they don't know the resolution of the case, don't know yet who's going to have access to that meat, don't want to have wastage, and that's I think that's part of the reason for the need here. It's certainly not to bring meat into the courtrooms. And it's an intention to do what I think the Member was initially getting at to not waste the meat but to make sure it goes to the right party. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Masi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, obviously I'm not getting through to this government. I'd like to know if there's been an engagement with elders, the traditional hunters what were their thoughts on spending this $150,000 towards a freezer? I'm not sure there's been an engagement with the traditional harvesters that go out on land every year to the area. And I go there every year. I see people hunt, and for their families. And so has there been any engagement with those traditional hunters? There's quite a few of them; not only from our region, from outside region too. So maybe I'll leave it at that because I'm not really getting answers that I was expecting. But has there been any engagement, Madam Chair? Mahsi.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that level of question around what ENR may have done I would say is appropriate to turn to the Minister of ENR, please.
So thank you. No, we didn't go out and engage with our Indigenous elders and that to get the freezer. We are trying to make have a place where we can keep the evidence within so it doesn't melt, it doesn't get destroyed, and we can after the court case, then we give it out. It's not years. It's not a year. It's within a timeframe that we have the court system and we need to follow the court system. And what we found, just recently in our last court case that went in there, basically we were told we had to give back two caribou. Two caribou exactly. We had a caribou that was missing a part and we could get charged with contempt.
I understand the frustration here, but I would love to not have people out there illegally hunting. We have amazing hunters out there that have done a great job. Unfortunately, we have individuals who do not hunt responsibly and we need to put these this meat in a freezer so that we can follow the court system and once the court system is done, within a timely manner the meat is distributed to our Indigenous partners or the communities that do not do the illegal hunt.
I understand the frustration. I'd love to say we could spend more money but we need to do it so we can do things legally. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Masi, Madam Chair. I only have 30 seconds here, but due to these issues or committing $150,000 towards a freezer, there hasn't been any engagement with harvesters. That's why we're questioning things here in the House. We need to be accountable, accountable government. And where does the issue lie? The issue lies with illegal hunting. Let's put our manpower towards that. Let's have a monitor mechanism, enforce that even further. That $150,000 can go towards that; that's what I'm saying. But obviously the Minister and the government feel doesn't feel the same way. So I'll just leave it at that. It's on the record. Masi.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to not comment on the caribou issue here. I guess or stepping back, you know, I think in our operations budget, we still have a bit of a problem with departments in March madness and then with our Infrastructure budgets, we seem to have an obvious problem where we can't get money out the door and we see these quite a large carryovers. And I guess, I don't want to get too much into the details, but there's $70,000 for a patrol vehicle here. How do we not manage to buy a vehicle with any and why does something like that have to go all the way back up to the Financial Management Board and come back to the floor of the House? I just don't understand how that can even happen, how we can't get the money out the door. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I was thinking I had the opportunity to speak a little more to broadly, as to why we have carryovers and how that works. But if the question is specifically about a patrol vehicle, I can certainly turn that over to Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would need to go back to the department. I do know that in many cases, there has been a delay in delivery of assets, and we're going to try not to blame COVID too much, but in some cases that was the case. But in this specific instance, I would need to go back to the department.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'll bite. I'm wondering if the Minister can then please provide some information on carryovers, especially when, in a COVID time, we are very dependent on government finances in order to keep businesses working. And I'm also wondering if, in that explanation, the Minister can also speak to the difference between carryovers and lapses. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, thank you. So Madam Chair, I'm happy to speak to that under any context here, so and I know that this was raised originally by one of the other Members earlier with the description that sometimes the capital plan is, you know, described as unrealistic. But the reality is we are right now constrained by the fact that we have to do year over year appropriations so that for every project, no matter what size or how large, from buying of a vehicle up to the construction of a health centre, you know, we have to come back every year. These are many of these projects are not year over year contracts. Many of them are in fact going to be multiyear projects, manyyear projects involving, you know, tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to their completion, so. And yet we have to come back every year and put a number in to reflect some sort of estimate of spending. And the challenging part, or one of the challenging parts of that of course, is that often, and happily, we have a lot of federal dollars that we are being funded from various funding pots out of the federal government, which then may not necessarily line up with the project itself. So it may be that the project gets four years of federal funding spread equally in portions of over those four years and we have to provide our own contribution to it when, in fact, the project is going to be only a small amount spent in the first year, a lot spent in the second and third, and then a small amount spent as it's wrapping up in the fourth year. But the amount that's not being spent in that first year simply gets carried forward to when it does get spent. So some of this problem, some of this challenge, really is just the fact of how the projects are unfolding and then they, you know, wind up getting carried over to reflect when the work's actually getting done because it's a big project and it takes time to get going. I think I hit all the highlights there, Madam Chair. Thank you.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Environment and Natural Resources, capital investment expenditures, wildlife and fish, not previously authorized $1,314,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. You know, and I get I understand the building of infrastructure climate in the North and that it is very difficult and that the federal government flows on multiyear funding. I don't understand the software climate in the government. But as far as I can tell, information systems shared services cannot seem to get its projects done on time and on budget and there's $7 million here to purchase software. So I don't know how we can blame COVID or a barging system or anything else. So can I just get a bit of an explanation of why we are seeing a lot of these programs and softwares, which I'm quite excited for, further carried over? And I know a couple of these are far from being done. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so I am also very excited about a lot of these projects but I will say it's not a simple matter of purchasing software the way I might go down and get a new Microsoft Outlook or whatever other brand one might choose to use. These are projects that involve going back to individual departments, and often multiple departments, in order to determine the needs, in order to bring everything together in terms of responding to the various needs, the data needs, converting data. You know, I'm seeing that having, in many occasions as the Minister responsible, gone back to our chief information officer and ask for detailed explanations project by project as to the status and what's gone wrong and why it's not being advanced as quickly as I might like. And as any one of us might like. But, you know, because it's not a simple matter of just going out and turning on a switch. There's a large amount of data that is under old systems that needs to be converted in some cases. There's translation issues in some cases. And, you know, in other instances, there simply are opportunities that come up to I mean, one example I might give actually would be under the with respect to the Mineral Resources Act and work that's happening there and trying to make sure that the regulatory system is ready to go. So I mean, I've given a few explanations. I think there's enough time, Madam Chair. I might just suggest if I could send it to Mr. Courtoreille, who I know had some of the details about different projects and if he could speak again, just generally, to the ISSS projects and some of the reasons for individual delays. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. A number of projects were delayed for rescoping reasons and then trying to find an appropriate supplier to deliver on the rescoped project. There was a couple other projects where the planning phase was delayed, and this speaks to what the Minister just mentioned with working with all the other departments which have delayed a couple of the projects in that list as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I struggle sometimes to understand the whole information system shared services and the IT world, but I also struggle to understand why it moves so slowly sometimes. I guess I'd like to narrow in a little here on the Mineral Administration Registry system, the MARS system. My understanding is that the $1.2 million carried over here is actually total of something about 4.5 million for our new mineral registry system. Can I get an update on when that will be complete and, more specifically, when we will have online MAP staking in the NWT. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am also quite keen to pay attention to this particular project. And I will admit I don't necessarily have my ITI binders open in front of me at the moment, but. So let me commit to ensuring that we give a full update to the House with respect to the MARS system program. I believe, actually now, part of the delay here is in fact to make it something's that's even better, so there were delays. There were delays in terms of preparing the regulations from under the Mineral Resources Act last spring as a result of COVID. And then, you know, hiring challenges again last spring and summer when the focus of hiring was with respect to responding to the pandemic. Things are already in place, people are in place, and the work to deliver on the regulatory framework that would wherein this system would have to fit is now underway. So it's moving along and as far as an updated timeline, again I do have it, just not in front of me. So I will certainly commit to providing that. Thank you.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm going to try and get one more commitment out of the Minister. We have spoken before about the GNWT online services program. I see phase two is in here. There are a number of great services. We are moving online and I know that has been delayed. Can we get a commitment out of the Minister to get an update on the GNWT online services program? Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do have a date in my head but I don't want to get it wrong. Let me turn it to Mr. Koe and see if he has that date in front of him, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The notes I have are that it will be complete this fiscal year before March 31st, 2022. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Finance, capital investment expenditures, information systems shared services, not previously authorized, $6,996,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I am happy to see what appears to be the end of the saga of the Norman Wells health centre. We are settling for nearly for $4,750,000. I don't even know where to get with this one. Do we have some lessons learned for the Norman Wells health centre; specifically, what caused the delays? I know there was a bit of a debate about how many change orders the GNWT was responsible for but I'm just trying to figure out how we make sure we don't see settlements in our infrastructure budgets again for $5 million. So there's some lessons to be learned out of the Norman Wells health officer settlement. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there certainly was, I think, quite a bit of an analysis done to understand the reasons for the delay in this particular case. And that is parts of what went in to, of course, to the process of determining what the appropriate settlement might to be and how the GNWT might approach the problem, first, in the front end of resolving the matter, but also then using that information going forward. So I will again go back to the Department of Infrastructure and the Department of Health and Social Services to confirm how much of that can be provided to the Members confidentially. Obviously, some of that information would have been prepared in the course of litigation preparation. So I just want to confirm that it's not privileged and if it's not, we will certainly get more information to the Member.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I feel that there is some public interest here in reiterating the facts here that Clark Builders sued us for $16 million on the Norman Wells health centre, and I believe that is public knowledge; there's a court case. And then we settled for what is now appeared to be $4.75 million. And a lot of the delays, my understanding, were on the GNWT and a number of change orders and disagreements with the contractor. And I believe the Office of the Fire Marshal also caused some number of those delays, which we are also in court with. I don't yet believe that has been resolved, so. I guess I would like a commitment out of the Minister to perhaps provide some more information on what are the lessons coming out of the building of the Norman Wells health centre and longterm care facility. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think that getting into exactly who was to blame is delving far too closely into what may well be subject to a settlement agreement signed with another party on behalf of between the GNWT. So, again, I'm going to take pause on this one but that's not to say that there's not lessons to be learned from projects that run delays and that that opportunity isn't available to the GNWT, just that this might not be the shining moment where we can do that because we have signed an agreement that comes with you know, an agreement with the other party to maintain some confidentiality. So I'll go back and look at whether this is a chance to get into the determination as to who owed who what and why; or if, in fact, there's a way to share that with Members with not to share with public; or if, in fact, a more general example might be better served for that purpose. The purpose, of course, being to understand with when there's an overage, when there's a delay, why are some of the reasons for that. So that is certainly one that we can look into. Thank you, Madam Chair.
No further questions, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, it's my understanding this is quite a large number here, the $22 million for all these projects. However, with the substantive amount being the $13 million of the health centre in Tulita, which I know for a fact is being carried over because of inability to get in and build during COVID, I'm assuming, or there's issues there. So could the Minister of the department maybe speak a little bit to is this normal for this amount of money, or is this generally a lot due to the inability to spend money last year during COVID? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, with respect to the specifics of this amount for Health, then that may be a question for the Minister of Health. But I think where I'm going here is in terms of just the overages or the carryovers generally, then for that, Madam Chair, if I might turn it back over to Mr. Koe to speak to to what extent these carryover are, again, within a range of, quote unquote, "normal". Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yeah, I think the Member's correct. There's one big project in here for almost $14 million. That, unfortunately, was a direct impact of COVID and the inability to access the community for the project. I would say outside of that one, the rest of them are fairly fairly common average for carryovers for this department and there multiple large projects that they do undertake every year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I see that Stanton Legacy building renovations is also in here a much smaller number, that one's at $3 million. I'm just wondering if the Minister can speak to the timeline on that building and when they expect the building renovations to be complete. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Minister of Health can speak to that one, please.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the renovations are ongoing; now they're expected to take about another 14 or 15 months. After that, there will be a period of commissioning the building and patients will arrive at the beginning of the in the spring of 2023. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So the commissioning of the building, what's entailed in that and that is about a yearlong process, is it? Thank you.
Yes, thank you. I don't know what's involved in commissioning but there is a sixmonth period allocated for it. Thank you.
No, thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I recently saw the announcement that we got a contractor for the new fish plant in Hay River; I'm excited to see that. I've heard less about the remote fishery collection stations, and I see the million dollars is being carried over here. Can I just get an update on where those are at and when we can expect to see that work start? Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this construction work is expected in the current fiscal year 20212022. I think with some expectation that it may, indeed, be even as early as this fall but certainly within the next within the 20212022 fiscals, as I've said will be getting started. And it's a project that has involved the collection stations are involving some discussions with communities around the lake, including the City of Yellowknife, Fort Resolution, Fort Resolution Metis Council, the Deninu Kue First Nation, and so the last year was a bit delayed. One of the other delays I shouldn't say of course, one of the other delays was with respect to the fact that we do the Department of Fisheries and Oceans federally is responsible for what is going on on the waters and there's been some need to have inspections done with them. But that I believe we have that all resolved as well. So, yes, that's the reason for the carryover. This is yet another one that has a bit of an echo veil on it too, but it is progressing and at this point, now progressing to complete. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Glad to hear that, and I'm glad to hear we're gone through the DFO inspection process. I know that was not easy for a couple aspects of this. I guess the last public information I have kind of seen on this is in regards to the entire fishery revitalization plan which sets out some idea for the remote collection stations but based on what the Minister said, there seems to be quite a bit of progress. And I guess I'm just looking for a commitment that we get, you know, some public information about where exactly they're going and how large they are and when we can expect to see them operate. I think this is much of good news though and would like to be further updated. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, I am happy to provide that update. It's I mean, I'm speaking to it because I've been receiving, as Minister of ITI, updates regularly and, in fact, only just quite recently on some of this. So let me put that together and I'm happy to commit to getting more information. It is a good news story and, yeah, there's been some delays but it does seem as though some of that's been worked through now with respect to how to manage the inspections or the requirement of DFO. So we'll certainly commit to getting that out.
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the fish plant, was there any cost increase because of building costs that maybe have occurred since the original budget? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't have the financial details here, and I'm not sure if either of the witnesses might have it. There were original cost overages from the original time when the project was first conceived. But in terms of the wording of this contract, I mean, that, I believe, was spoken to at last year's or at a previous occasion in reviewing the infrastructure plans. So there hasn't been any changes in the last, you know, several months as far as moving the project forward. But as far as the original costs, the changes in costs, I'll I know there were changes to the costs, and I just don't remember what the numbers were. So I'll see if Mr. Koe might know that. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, the Minister spoke to it quite well. There was an increase to the project budget through the 20212022 capital estimates, and the project was increased to about $8.2 million to fulfill the budget or the projected costs of the project at that time. But there have been no increases to that budget as a result of COVID and commodity prices. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just because of rising cost in material and that, do we have a contingency built in to offset any additional material costs or labour? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, my understanding is there tends to be contingencies often built in, so I expect that this is no different in this particular project. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And with respect to the I guess Arcand got awarded the main contract. What amount are we looking at having, a lot of majority I guess northern contractors participate in this as well or even local contractors out of Hay River? Thank you, Madam Chair.
