Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The motion reads: WHEREAS lobbying government is a common activity;
AND WHEREAS most lobbying is legitimate and constructive, it is a common public perception that some lobbying may be inappropriate or contrary to the broad public interest;
AND WHEREAS the experience of these governments provides efficient examples for others to emulate and adapt to their own circumstances;
AND FURTHER, that the government provide a comprehensive response to this motion within 120 days.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to thank my colleagues for allowing me to bring this motion before the House today. I’d like to thank Mr. Nadli for seconding this motion to allow its debate.
Personally, I don’t believe one could make a motion any clearer or to the point when it comes to the transparency and accountability of a government. As I have come to say numerous times in the House, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and a lobbyist registry is about as open and bright as it comes to cleansing the question of legitimacy of the House business. However, before we begin to look at the rationale for such need, we need to first put in the definition of what we mean when we say “lobbyist” or what is a lobbyist and why a registry.
There are many ways to define this, but in simple terms, we are talking about a list of people and interest groups trying to influence politicians and government. Many jurisdictions in Canada have more formal definitions of lobbying and lobbyists, but in almost all cases those who are paid or compensated to represent the concerns of others to influence legislative or spending of governments are referred to as lobbyists. These individuals must usually abide by a lobbyist code of conduct and register themselves accordingly. Consequently, those who lobby on a voluntary basis are not required to register nationally.
On top of that, some jurisdictions also base this activity to the following key principles of conduct. Some principles, for example, as found in the Lobbying Act of Canada, refer to such guidelines as that free and open access to government is an important matter of public interest; that lobbying public office holders is a legitimate activity; that it is desirable for public office holders and the general public to be able to know who is engaged in lobbying activities; and finally, that a system of registration of paid lobbyists should not impede free and open access to government.
In essence, lobbying the government is in itself not a bad thing. Government can learn a lot from outside experts such as businesses, non-profits, environmental groups, religious organizations. You name it. As I said, it is legitimate and legal activity. It’s to the greater transparency of lobbying and the greater accountability of public officials where one needs to consider a tool that helps curb inappropriate influence to provide the public scrutiny for its elected decision-makers. Hence, the need and motion before us today.
Some may ask, what does government do now in the absence of a lobbyist registry? Any inquiries from the public or even MLAs have to be made to the official or agency in question. Certain records, in some cases, may be subject to access to information and privacy legislation which does not have a very strong mechanism to enforce compliance, but more importantly, this mechanism does not apply to the office of the Ministers, its Members, or the Legislative Assembly in general. Instead, the public and even Members of this House have no idea who is doing the lobbying, or who they represent, when they meet with specific officials in government and what topics are being discussed.
To the question of how a lobbyist registry would work in our unique consensus style of government, I turn your attention to cities such as Toronto whose municipal dealings are similar to consensus and have had a lobbyist registry in place since 2007. I see no issue that the scope of legislation with proper consultation and review could not produce a bill of high integrity dealing with our unique consensus style of government.
As well, to the question would lobbying to Regular MLAs and non-elected officials have to be reported, in my view, a GNWT registry should be covering lobbying of elected and non-elected officials with decision-making powers or significant influence. The new Financial Administration Act makes greater provision of power for deputy ministers; therefore, so should the transparency of their action.
As for MLAs, there is no dispute that we have significant powers over legislation and appropriations, so we would, in theory, not be immune to such a tool. Of course, all these issues would need to be considered carefully and with proper debate.
Finally, some may be wondering how much would such a lobbyist registry cost the GNWT. This is a great question, especially as we are tethering on the cliff of fiscal restraint. My goal, colleagues, is to keep this simple and efficient for the NWT and its residents. It must be kept in line with the size and activity of our jurisdiction with very modest resources. To put this modest dollar figure to the test, Mr. Speaker, one only needs to look at the budget for the Government of Canada Registry of $825,000 where more than 5,000 lobbyists are registered. By all accounts, a GNWT registry would be much more humble by design.
It all boils down to this: it’s about catching up with the rest of Canada and becoming part of that distinguished list of enlightened jurisdictions that keep track of lobbyist activities. As our responsibilities grow in the aftermath of devolution, all the more reason to get the job done now and show the people of the NWT we are truly an open and honest government.
I’d like to thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I’d like to thank Mr. Nadli for seconding and to my colleagues here today for their comments. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. To the motion. I’ll allow the seconder to the motion, Mr. Nadli.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this motion. I’d like to thank my colleague Mr. Dolynny for the work that he’s done and the passion that he’s brought to this motion on the floor of the House today.
As my colleagues would understand, I’m the chair of the Government Operations committee and the work of the committee is to ensure that there is a level of transparency and accountability on the part of government, and in that same spirit that this motion purports, is that there has to be a system of fairness that things be done in a fair, transparent and also, at the same time, an accountable manner. Such is the mission that we carry in terms of my colleagues that are part of the Government Operations committee.
In some instances, lobbying, what it’s all about is who is the loudest. In the Northwest Territories we try to be respectful, we try to work within the context of culture, cultural differences. At the same time, there’s a lot of western thought in terms of how the economy should work, the values that you bring with it, and sometimes it’s a mixture. At the same time, we stand proudly and we need to be very proud in terms of how we operate uniquely, which is northern and which is respectful. At the same time, we recognize the differences that we have and to try to work with each other. So that’s what we bring forth that’s a fairly common feature within the NWT.
Lobbying, of course, is an effort to try to bring influence to a cause. Of course, within governments there’s a lot of that that happens in terms of lobbying for positions, lobbying for contracts, lobbying for major initiatives and so forth. So that’s what happens. At the same time, there has been, at the federal level, an attempt to try to bring some discipline in terms of what our lobbyists do. At the federal level there has been precedence in terms of ensuring that there’s a system of order in terms of how it can be managed. I think, for the most part, devolution has changed the landscape within the NWT, how we do business, and this motion setting forth a lobbyist registry is timely in that we need to ensure that we do things in a fair, transparent, accountable manner. For those reasons, I stand in support of this motion. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. To the motion. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also am in support of this motion. I think it is a motion for a territory whose time has come. It has been mentioned already and it will be mentioned again, but devolution is part of our growing up as a territory and we are growing up. As we grow up, there are things that we need to do to accept the fact that we are growing up, to accept the fact that we are becoming a little more adult. There have been concerns in the past about people who have been making entreaties to Cabinet, to Ministers, to MLAs. There have been concerns that they may not have been doing them in a truly moral and ethical manner. Whether that’s valid or not I don’t know, but there certainly have been questions that have been raised in the general public about the number of people and/or the type of people and what the representation is of people who are making entreaties to the government.
So I think a lobbyist registry would certainly allow for a clarity of who is lobbying and why they are lobbying, because a registry would lay that out. I think it’s something that we ought to be moving towards.
One of the things that I would hope would be looked at, and that would be defined in the investigation of whether or not a registry would work, is a definition of what a lobbyist is, and Mr. Dolynny referenced some of those. There are certainly enough acts out there already with definitions that we don’t have to do a heck of a lot of work in order to get ourselves to the same point.
I think that it’s going to be a minimal cost. There probably is going to be a little bit of a cost, but I think it’s going to be minimal cost. Mr. Dolynny referenced 800-and-some thousand dollars for the federal government, who is going to have a heck of a lot more people on their registry than we will. So I see that it would be a very minimal cost, and looking at the cost should be part of the investigation that this motion calls for.
One of the things that I do want to state is that the investigation needs to look beyond just establishing a registry. Accountability and transparency are words that we hear quite often these days. In order for us to have transparency in what’s going on in the government, for us to have accountability of Ministers and Members and deputy ministers, I think that point is well taken, there needs to be a reporting mechanism. It’s one thing to have a list of people who are lobbying, it’s another thing to know how often they are lobbying and who they are lobbying, and basically the registry will show what they are lobbying for.
So I certainly hope that that’s going to be part of any investigation and this motion only looks or asks us to look at investigating whether or not a lobbyist registry should go forward because there’s no money involved in this at this point and I think it’s an investigation that could be done relatively easily, relatively quickly and I would hope that certainly the government would act on this and that we would get a report on it long before the end of the 17th Assembly.
So, with that, I am in support of the motion and I encourage my colleagues to support it as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion, Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before I begin, I’d just like to thank Mr. Dolynny and Mr. Nadli, as well as any other Members who have brought a lobbyist registry before government. I’m happy to speak on it today.
When we discussed this in committee, the first thing that came to mind was transparency and accountability on our government and our departments and how we do business throughout the Northwest Territories. The public and public offices have the right to know who is lobbying our government and who is going into contracts with our government. We need to know which groups, businesses and organizations meet with government, what was discussed and those need to be documented in terms of some of our local contractors not having that opportunity to get in those front doors.
With that said, I know we do have some people who get paid as lobbyists and I think the paid lobbyists should not impede the free and open access to government as well. So when we have organizations out there that would like to meet with our government that sometimes they might not get those appointments because there are other groups that are paying lobbyists to come and meet with government.
I know Members on this side of the House and even in the public, in the media, we have organizations that are concerned about the negotiated contracts that our government does make a common practice of. In some cases it’s great because we negotiate with local businesses and Aboriginal businesses. However, there’s not that fairness that Mr. Nadli has spoken about earlier in terms of moving forward on this. So I do have concerns with negotiated contracts and how those come out and I think a lobbyist registry will give me some answers and the public some answers on why contracts are negotiated, but also how this government makes their decisions and how dollars are spent and how taxpayer dollars are spent in some projects and programs and services throughout the Northwest Territories.
So with those all said, I did have a concern, though, just in the cost of creating this registry or if there’s going to be an office that’s going to be associated with it. I strongly support that it does need to be accessible 24/7 via the Internet and having some kind of a resource in that way, but I will support the motion, which asks to investigate the best way to implement a lobbyist registry that is publicly accessible via the Internet.
So I’d like to thank the Members again for bringing this motion forward and for being able to speak on it. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. To the motion. Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t have much more to add than the mover, the seconder and other speakers on this motion. I am rising in support of the motion. We do have more responsibility here in the Northwest Territories as a result of devolution. As a result, we have more at stake with our lands, waters and resources and, therefore, should have more accountability and transparency, and that’s why I will be voting in favour of this motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. Mr. Bouchard.
I too will be supporting this motion, but I do have some questions going forward. I would like to see some of the framework and some of the assessment of this registry. There are some concerns for me. I think a lot of these registries are applying to a party politics situation. I think consensus government is quite a bit different. The Member has talked about Regular Members maybe having to be involved in this registry, as well, when we have meetings, because in order for a lot of things to get approved here, we have to have consensus. We have to have consensus, so we have to have Members on this side represented there, so we have to be involved as well.
I guess defining what a lobbyist is, is individuals who are getting paid. We have band members, companies, NGOs, different constituents in the territory that come talk to us about different issues, Mr. Speaker. Defining that going forward would be a big question mark for me.
I understand Members’ comments that now that devolution is here, some of the Ministers have a parallel responsibility, so we need to implement some sort of registry here.
I am voting in support of it. It will be critical in looking at how it goes forward, how this framework will be structured and how it will fit our consensus government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. To the motion. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thanks to my colleagues, again, from Range Lake and Deh Cho for bringing this forward. It’s an important mechanism for transparency and accountability. I really appreciate their doing so.
I would like to offer, first of all, strong support for the assumption behind this motion that a lobbyist registry is clearly needed. I think that’s a given. I would also offer strong support for the motion itself, which calls for exactly how this can be done.
To reflect most comments of my colleagues, devolution has added responsibility and a need for transparency that we didn’t have before, so I see this as being a timely and appropriate mechanism. Much has been discussed in this House about the need for Ministers who have been assigned new authorities, to be more objective, accountable and transparently, so again this is in line with that.
When assessing how to establish a lobbyist registry, it’s important to include how the public can easily and clearly see who is meeting with our Cabinet Ministers, how frequently and about what, as has been said by my colleagues. This is an important component in the public’s ask before bringing forward accountability.
I will leave it at that. I don’t know that this needs to extend to Regular Members, although certainly for myself I would be happy to report any meetings I have. The day we really have a consensus government, that might be appropriate. I don’t think we are anywhere close to that. Thank you for this opportunity to comment. I will be supporting this motion. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. To the motion. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank Mr. Dolynny and Mr. Nadli for bringing this motion to the floor. I think this motion should be looked at sometime in the future, not today. I have thoughts on it and I don’t think that at this time a motion like this is needed in the Northwest Territories, especially in our small communities. I can see it in the larger centres like Yellowknife. You have a lot of people coming in here and meeting all the time and we don’t have that opportunity. In our small communities, we know who is actually coming to meet with even ourselves as MLAs. We can almost be the lobbyist ourselves because we want issues and things dealt with in our communities.
Right now this, for me, raises too many questions. I feel this is a consensus-style government, and with a lobbyist registry, I’m not really comfortable with it. You are going to have to be very, very careful. I don’t see a need for it right now, so I’m going to be abstaining from this motion.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Honourable Premier, Mr. McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. New legislation would be required to establish a lobbyist registry. In other jurisdictions where lobbyist legislation exists, the responsibility for managing a lobbyist registry is usually assigned in that legislation to an offer of the Legislature. For example, in Alberta, the lobbyist registry falls under the purview of the Ethics Councillor; the Government of Canada has a Commissioner of Lobbying.
We certainly agree that transparency is important and there’s no reason why the public should not know with whom Ministers are meeting and why. That information is available now upon request. There is nothing to hide. To date, we have not received any such requests. Ministers meet regularly with representatives of all sectors. I can state with certainty that we met with representatives of Aboriginal governments and non-government organizations far more frequently than we do with paid lobbyists. In fact, the number of paid lobbyists active in the Northwest Territories that would meet the definition of lobbyist in federal and most provincial legislation can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The old adage of making a mountain out of a molehill comes to mind.
Nevertheless, this government is not opposed to exploring the question of whether or not a lobbyist registry should be established. However, given the small number of paid lobbyists in the Northwest Territories, the infrequency of their meetings with Ministers and the lack of time remaining in the term to develop new legislation and identify resources to establish the registry, we suggest that this matter be referred to the next Assembly for their consideration.
The government will be abstaining from voting on the motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First off, it’s often tradition that we thank the mover and the seconder. I think it certainly deserves that in these circumstances. How they came up with the idea of a lobbyist registry I don’t know, but I think it’s a good one and certainly one that deserves exploring.
Just because we wouldn’t use it often doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be important, and just because you wouldn’t use it often doesn’t mean it couldn’t have a large impact. We’ve often heard about how the influences of lobbyists play on big contracts getting opportunities that most folks don’t know. We don’t know if that’s the case here. I’m not implying that’s the case in any way. I’m just saying we have always heard about these things. You see the mess in the United States, Canada and across the world about what lobbyists can and cannot do and you wonder: Will the Northwest Territories ever come to a time where these are the types of problems we will have to face?
I do strongly believe there is a role for lobbyists in the world. Some organizations, both big and small, just don’t have the skills, abilities, time and knowledge of where to take your particular matter. Sometimes matters are so important they know that they’re not the right person to sell it. It’s an idea of importance, great importance, but it’s important that the idea gets out there and gets to the right doorsteps to be heard.
We’ve seen this building and we have to be honest with ourselves that we’ve seen people leave this building and have had unprecedented access with respect to bringing forward ideas and issues, Mr. Speaker. What influence have they had on the results? We just don’t know and it would be difficult to characterize it other than a question.
Some people still play a role on the future of this government and the future, future governments. Where does that role start? Where does it end? It has been already said, and I fully agree, that transparency and fairness is really what this is all about. In my opinion, honestly, it doesn’t go far enough. I think every Member should be accountable to this particular principle, so I would say even MLAs. No one should be exempt from this. Would it be used often? That shouldn’t be the question. It should be about how it’s used.
I may never be lobbied by a paid lobbyist group but I would be more than willing to come clean if anyone ever asked me. To date, I have not been lobbied by a lobby group that I am aware of at least.
I would rightly put this on the shoulders of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner. Who better to understand these types of issues and conflicts than the present Conflict of Interest Commissioner?
For the facts, honesty, and let’s get this out there, Members cannot receive a gift more than $400 and we must report that. That’s the type of scrutiny that we’re presently under, but that doesn’t preclude how many times we have been invited to particular events to participate. That doesn’t include how many dinners have been bought. There are many gaps in the process of accountability. I believe one further step should be considered when I say things don’t go far enough.
While I welcome what the Premier said and like what he said about if anyone requests a copy of the Ministers’ calendars, it would be provided. I think he said no one, to date, has said that. That’s testament to people’s trust in the government, but at the same time I think sometimes people don’t know about their rights as well. We must find a balanced approach. When I say I don’t think it goes far enough, we should find a way to balance that with Ministers’ schedules and who they meet with to be publicized in a reasonable way; protecting those who are bringing forward proper issues, but recognizing what types of issues there are, how many times they are being brought forward by people and for what reason.
At the end of the day, I don’t know how many lobbyists there are in the Northwest Territories. The Premier has characterized it by saying the number could fit on one hand. I don’t know any of them personally, Mr. Speaker, and if I do they’ve never told me they are paid lobbyists.
I don’t know how many southern lobbyists come to the North to express their opinion and I’d be surprised, if not shocked, to find out if we had any at all.
At the end of the day, I support this initiative and I think it’s a great idea. Just because you don’t use it often doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be a pillar of the way we do business. We must be responsible in all accounts. This adds transparency and accountability. It’s not asking too much. In this world today, the public demands a higher level of scrutiny than they have ever before and that scrutiny and expectation of accountability will only grow every day going forward. So asking for this type of accountability I don’t think is asking too much. It’s being honest with our constituents on why we are doing particular business. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I will allow the mover of the motion to have closing remarks. Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank Mr. Nadli for seconding and allowing debate on this motion before the House. I would also like to thank my colleagues for their support and point of view, although I disagree. I don’t think we are making a mountain out of a molehill.
It has been some time since we have had a debate of this nature, so it’s refreshing to get back on the saddle. I would like to thank my colleagues.
There were some excellent points being brought forward during this debate. I hope these points provide the framework of investigation being asked. Again, this motion does not compel the legislation for a lobbyist registry but merely suggests the feasibility on the best way to implement this publicly, nothing more.
